# The sexism experienced by two gay male fathers in the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707 "2018-07-11T09:42:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/1 "2018-07-11T09:42:20Z")
The BBC have an interesting article on the experiences of a gay male father [here](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44718727). > [@](#): > > When a gay Londoner and his partner had a child they knew they were likely to experience homophobia. What they were not ready for was sexism. But, as Matthew Jenkin explains here, when he goes out in public with his daughter it’s an everyday occurrence. I’ve excepted three examples: > [@](#): > > Halfway through You are my sunshine, Carla’s hysterics crescendoed and then it happened. I was a dad in a sea of mums struggling to soothe his child, so the group decided to come to the rescue. Instead of support, I was offered pity and condescension. > > “Have you thought about changing her nappy?” suggested one mother. “Do you think she’s hungry?” > > And worst of all: “Perhaps I should hold the baby for you?” > > … > Health visitors have shown their disapproval on occasion by greeting the news of Carla’s two fathers with a sharp intake of breath, a shocked “Oh!” and then an awkward silence. > > … > > We were trying our best to soothe her when the waitress approached. > > “Two men cannot look after a baby. Next time bring a woman,” she scolded us. It’s an interesting and - most importantly - an enlightening read. What’s the American experience like? ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/2 "2018-07-11T11:38:47Z")
To be honest I think most of those are as much about homophobia as sexism, especially the third (I haven’t read the whole article). For the first excerpt, I suspect some of those women may have offered the same ‘helpful’ advice to another woman - OK, probably not the last comment, which is just sexist, but the other two quotes are sensible suggestions - though certainly condescending in their inbuilt assumption that the parent has not thought of those things themselves, no doubt exacerbated by the parent being a man. I think heterosexual male parents face sexism too, and this is a case of homophobia making it much worse. Hope they keep fighting the good fight - in another generation I expect and hope this sort of thing will have largely died away. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/3 "2018-07-11T12:11:18Z")
Another ‘men experiencing sexism’ thread, **Quartz**? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/4 "2018-07-11T12:16:20Z")
We must stamp it out _before_ it reaches minuscule proportions! ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/5 "2018-07-11T12:18:40Z")
Sounds similar to what new mums get from older women. It’s also boring. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/6 "2018-07-11T12:36:08Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > Another ‘men experiencing sexism’ thread, **Quartz**? I don’t recall you making the same objection to threads about women experiencing sexism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/7 "2018-07-11T12:41:59Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > What’s the American experience like? Getting unhelpful “helpful” advice from strangers on childcare is a universal experience for parents in the U.S. This couple seems to have an additional layer of headaches, but let’s not kid ourselves that women are not routinely telling other women how they should care for their child. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/8 "2018-07-11T12:45:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t recall you making the same objection to threads about women experiencing sexism. It was a question for you, not an objection. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/9 "2018-07-11T13:01:57Z")
Men taking care of children garners both more praise and more censure because societally we think that it’s a woman’s job. This isn’t sexism that just affects men. It’s the other side of the same damned coin. If anyone finds that they only talk about sexism as it impacts one sex, they are ignoring half of the picture. If we think women are better caregivers for children, we penalize people in several ways: 1. We degrade men’s work as caregivers 2. We hold women to a higher standard 3. We overpraise men, or talk about them “babysitting” their own children 4. We use it as evidence that there is “men’s work” and “women’s work” 5. We justify policies that harm women’s career prospects because they’ll just be out of the workforce anyway 6. We build evolutionary just-so stories that we then use as weapons 7. We justify treating men as predators who are a threat to children 8. We justify sexist laws ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/10 "2018-07-11T13:03:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Getting unhelpful “helpful” advice from strangers on childcare is a universal experience for parents in the U.S. This couple seems to have an additional layer of headaches, but let’s not kid ourselves that women are not routinely telling other women how they should care for their child. Very true. The first example is one I’ve seen frequently (and been on the receiving end of). People with children develop an inner compulsion to offer helpful advice to new parents - even now I find it hard not to chime in. It’s like once you have a child you are officially The Expert on the subject. For a while I was half-tempted to get a button made reading “I Reproduced! (Ask me how!)” The other two examples look a lot like homophobia to me, or possibly a combination of homophobia and sexism. That said, I see plenty of dads out with the kids without their wife as a chaperone these days, even with infants, so it doesn’t necessarily follow any more that two men with a baby are necessarily a couple. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/11 "2018-07-11T13:06:31Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Sounds similar to what new mums get from older women. YUP I can think of two occasions where I’ve heard stuff like this. One was in the summer, when I had my little girl at some outside place, and she was running around barefoot. An older woman scolded me, “You need to put her shoes on her!” Except that’s a lie: I was standing next to my wife, and the older woman scolded my wife. A couple of weeks ago I was at a playground with a climbing structure. My girl was happily climbing, wearing an ankle-length skirt. An older woman approached me (this time it was really me), and said, “Do you want to tie her skirt into a knot, so she doesn’t trip?” I was irritated, both because the woman wasn’t minding her own business, and because she was right, goddammit. So I tied the skirt into a knot and got over my damn self. Sure, the waitress sounds like a piece of work. But these guys sound like they may not be aware of the dynamic of experienced parents being busybodies. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/12 "2018-07-11T13:09:29Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t recall you making the same objection to threads about women experiencing sexism. Is there a specific poster that has started several of them? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/13 "2018-07-11T13:32:17Z")
I was a stay-at-home dad for my first daughter, and experienced that kind of cluelessness in point 1 of the OP occasionally. Yeah, it was a little sexist. Point 2 was more homophobia than sexism, 3 was a bit of both. It’ll change when women are equal enough that dad as primary caregiver isn’t even a thing any more - when women make as much money as men, aren’t at risk of losing jobs or missing promotions if they fall pregnant, both sexes have [reasonable parental leave](https://sweden.se/quickfact/parental-leave/), etc. etc. So the best way to fix _this_ sexism, is to fix the actual, problematic anti-woman sexism that pervades society, like **wonky** also said above. Funny thing, that. So I expect **Quartz** will be making a thread on how to do that, any day now. _Aaaany_ day… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/14 "2018-07-11T13:51:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I don’t recall you making the same objection to threads about women experiencing sexism. Do you feel men and women experience an equal amount of sexism? If not, do you feel men or women experience more sexism? What is the approximate ratio between what each gender experiences? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/15 "2018-07-11T13:51:19Z")
I have been told that gay parenting is child abuse by anti-abortion protestors because “a child needs a mother and a father.” The same people who want single woman to give birth and (I guess) be forced to give their child to a married couple. OTOH, two men and a little boy were on my line and discovered they had left their credit card in the car. One of the guys went out to get it, and other one apologized to the woman in Orthodox Jewish style clothing on line behind him, saying “My husband had to go the car to get the credit card.” All she said was “That’s all right.” No comments or advice added. When the boy complained “How long are we going to stay here, Daddy?” he replied “Until Poppy comes back with the credit card.” All in all, it was a nice little piece of modern life. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/16 "2018-07-11T13:56:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So I expect **Quartz** will be making a thread on how to do that, any day now. _Aaaany_ day… Sorry, but an answer requires a better brain than mine. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/17 "2018-07-11T13:57:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Do you feel men and women experience an equal amount of sexism? > > If not, do you feel men or women experience more sexism? What is the approximate ratio between what each gender experiences? I’m not sure it’s constructive to make this a competition between men and women as to who has it worse. There certainly exist many examples of sexism against men that are worth discussing independent of the larger number of issues women face. When one person starts _several_ threads about it, however, one rightly begins to wonder about the ulterior motives involved. And as already pointed out, the best way to fight sexism against men is to fight sexism in general. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/18 "2018-07-11T14:44:41Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Sounds similar to what new mums get from older women. Not just from older women, unless the new mum is young. The person making the suggestions can be really klutzy about it, and may be hitting a sore point, but they generally mean well. Mind you: they often mean well like your mother does when she greets you with “you really need to lose weight” (or a more polite version) and later asks “you’re only going to eat that much?” - she means well, you still want to brain her. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/19 "2018-07-11T15:27:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > When one person starts _several_ threads about it, You haven’t complained about other topics about which I’ve started _several_ threads. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707/20 "2018-07-11T15:56:46Z")
> [@wonky](#): > > Men taking care of children garners both more praise and more censure because societally we think that it’s a woman’s job. This isn’t sexism that just affects men. It’s the other side of the same damned coin. If anyone finds that they only talk about sexism as it impacts one sex, they are ignoring half of the picture. > > If we think women are better caregivers for children, we penalize people in several ways: > > 1. We degrade men’s work as caregivers > 2. We hold women to a higher standard > 3. We overpraise men, or talk about them “babysitting” their own children > 4. We use it as evidence that there is “men’s work” and “women’s work” > 5. We justify policies that harm women’s career prospects because they’ll just be out of the workforce anyway > 6. We build evolutionary just-so stories that we then use as weapons > 7. We justify treating men as predators who are a threat to children > 8. We justify sexist laws 1. We limit potential relationships between fathers and children and rob all of them of a great deal of joy, strength, and satisfaction. This robs not just men of the joys of parenthood, but girls and boys both of the joys and benefits of a responsive, nurturing father. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sexism-experienced-by-two-gay-male-fathers-in-the-uk/817707.md?page=2)