# The Shape of Water (movie) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 26, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318 "2017-12-26T16:48:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2018, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/21 "2018-01-08T03:16:22Z")
Just saw it and it was OK. This and Crimson Peak were both about equal for me. OK, not great, just movies that I will not retain huge memories of. It felt overly long to me. I thought it was going to be about 90-100 minutes, tops, considering the story. This would have been better if edited down a bit. Hellboy 2 and Pan’s Labyrinth are the best Del Toro movies I’ve seen. ---
**Author:** ![california\_jobcase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9d8465/32.png) [@california\_jobcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/california_jobcase)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/22 "2018-01-09T04:47:00Z")
I have to add that Doug Jones, the actor in the fish-dude suit, was Charlie Cardinal at BSU back around '80-81. ---
**Author:** ![Randolph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Randolph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randolph)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/23 "2018-01-11T16:16:10Z")
Saw it, though it was pretty good, but for me it didn’t quite click fully - the buildup to the romance seemed plot-driven, and it seemed to go from scary-mysterious-creature-in-a-tank to poolside-picnics-and-hey-let’s-fuck in a few too few beats. And I can’t shake the feeling that this movie originated from Del Toro looking at Abe Sapien and thinking, “Hey, he’s kinda sexy. What if…” The creature was beautiful, though. Kinda sexy. What if… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/24 "2018-01-11T16:39:04Z")
> [@Randolph](#): > > And I can’t shake the feeling that this movie originated from Del Toro looking at Abe Sapien and thinking, “Hey, he’s kinda sexy. What if…” > > The creature was beautiful, though. Kinda sexy. What if… I read a feature piece on the movie, and the reporter asked Del Toro why he was so interested in monsters. He responded with an ascending whistle and slowly raising one finger erect. So I think you’re not far off. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/25 "2018-01-11T19:35:07Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > I saw it this afternoon. While there were things I liked about it, the sentimentality was too much for me, and the antagonist was so awful that he was something of a cartoon character. I think the antagonist was the weakest part of the movie. He was just sadistic for no reason - yet so duty-bound he was willing to fulfill his mission even though he was dying from untreated gangrene. Thing is, he wasn’t really very interesting. He’s just there to have an American 50s Straight White Repressed Asshole to Hate. This presentation seriously lowered the enjoyment of the movie for me. If they could have made the villain as interesting as the other characters, it would have been better. > [@](#): > > I did like the look of the movie, although some of it was anachronistic (the lab looked like something from Jules Verne). Sally Hawkins’ acting was excellent. I liked how the movie drew parallels between different ways that society sidelines and marginalizes people. There were some nice throwaway bits, such as the things that showed up momentarily on TV as the channels changed. Agree with all this. Though I thought the romance wasn’t fleshed out enough. They went from ‘wow, we can communicate through sign language’ to ‘let’s have sex!’ really quickly. > [@](#): > > BTW, I don’t think the movie ever explicitly said why Giles (Richard Jenkins’ character) had been fired. Is it because he was gay? I assumed he was fired Because of a drinking problem - but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/26 "2018-01-14T21:00:42Z")
I don’t think there’s going to be many “haven’t seen it yet” folk reading this thread, but to them I want to make a key point. This type of movie really isn’t **Mrs. FtG** ’s cup of tea. But she loved it. That’s how well it was done. We saw Sallie Hawkins in _Maudie_ recently. Also an amazing job there. While I love Michael Shannon, he’s basically repeating himself now. This is too much like his _Boardwalk Empire_ character and such. Speaking of repeating. I kept noticing how similar AM is to Abe Sapien in _Hellboy_ (aside from not sounding like Niles Crane, of course). Looked it up. Oh, that’s why. So many questions about the flooding the bathroom scene (what was she going to do with the water afterwards?), but got to let them go. Too bad about the cat. ---
**Author:** ![DooWahDiddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/27 "2018-01-14T21:44:35Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Too bad about the cat. Between this and _Stranger Things_, it’s not a good time for cats. And hey, _Cats_ on Broadway just closed (again)! But I digress. I’ve never seen a del Toro movie, and if I’m being honest, before it started I asked my wife if he was the weird-looking guy from the beer commercials. Having said that, I did not like this film. The leading lady was very charming and did a great job with no dialogue, but Jenkins to me seemed out of place, and the creature was hard not to laugh at. Shannon was fine, but with no motivation he came across as two-dimensional. Octavia Spencer did the best she could with her facial expressions but even they were cartoony. Obviously it’s doing well; maybe it’s just me. But come Oscar time I will definitely be rooting for something else. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/28 "2018-01-14T22:19:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Interesting note: the four protagonists were a mute woman, a gay man, a black woman, and a communist. The only straight white male able-bodied patriot in the movie is the antagonist. Which makes sense: this is a quintessential movie about misfits. (Saw the movie today.) Except he wasn’t just a communist, but a Soviet mole. But, yes, I did notice that the conspirators were all outsiders, or had something to hide. And the score seemed to involve the melody of the song [Smile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile_(Charlie_Chaplin_song)). Was I just hearing things? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2018, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/29 "2018-01-14T23:02:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > And the score seemed to involve the melody of the song [Smile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile_(Charlie_Chaplin_song)). Was I just hearing things? The IMDb score [page](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5580390/soundtrack) doesn’t list it. Perhaps you’re thinking of _You’ll Never Know_. Fairly similar song and used quite a bit in the background. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/30 "2018-01-15T02:08:58Z")
Several posts referred to this as a film about the 1950’s. It’s actually set in 1962. There are various references to current movies and TV shows in it that locate it in that year. I can’t find a website that collects everything which points to that year, but that’s what most websites say. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/31 "2018-01-15T02:46:59Z")
> [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > Several posts referred to this as a film about the 1950’s. It’s actually set in 1962. There are various references to current movies and TV shows in it that locate it in that year. I can’t find a website that collects everything which points to that year, but that’s what most websites say. It’s also explicitly shown in the film as being 1962. I forget exactly how, maybe a newspaper headline, but that date is shown as being the current year. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2018, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/32 "2018-01-15T02:58:44Z")
For one thing, the Cadillac cars in the dealership are labeled as 1962 models. I think there’s also a reference to the Cuban Missile Crisis. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/33 "2018-01-16T16:37:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I think the antagonist was the weakest part of the movie. He was just sadistic for no reason - yet so duty-bound he was willing to fulfill his mission even though he was dying from untreated gangrene. > > Thing is, he wasn’t really very interesting. He’s just there to have an American 50s Straight White Repressed Asshole to Hate. > > This presentation seriously lowered the enjoyment of the movie for me. If they could have made the villain as interesting as the other characters, it would have been better. I agree entirely with this. Overall, I enjoyed the film quite a bit, but Strickland was way too cartoon villain for me. I get that he represents all the negative things about American exceptionalism, but maybe he could have at least loved his children, for example? If there had been something about him or his life that he actually _loved_, I think it would have been a stronger motivator for him and would have added some much-needed nuance. It’s particularly noticeable since the other performances were so strong and we’re watching for facial cues and body language sharply due to Elisa. His performance stuck out like a [del]sore[/del] severed thumb. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/34 "2018-01-16T17:49:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Agree with all this. Though I thought the romance wasn’t fleshed out enough. They went from ‘wow, we can communicate through sign language’ to ‘let’s have sex!’ really quickly. I agree. I also never got the sense that “Charlie” was anything more than a human-shaped Dolphin…so their relationship was a woman having sex with something slightly more than a pet. > [@Malthus](#): > > I assumed he was fired Because of a drinking problem - but I could be wrong. I think you are absolutely right. He lost his job and probably his relationship with Bernie(?) because of the drinking. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/35 "2018-01-16T19:07:21Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > It’s particularly noticeable since the other performances were so strong and we’re watching for facial cues and body language sharply due to Elisa. His performance stuck out like a [del]sore[/del] severed thumb. Damn, exactly right. You articulated why it bothered me - the contrast with the other performances was so extreme. It isn’t I think the fault of the actor - it seems that’s just how his part was written. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/36 "2018-01-21T16:35:08Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > (Saw the movie today.) Except he wasn’t just a communist, but a Soviet mole. But, yes, I did notice that the conspirators were all outsiders, or had something to hide. > > And the score seemed to involve the melody of the song [Smile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smile_(Charlie_Chaplin_song)). Was I just hearing things? As a white male Republican, I just take off for granted that nearly every movie or TV show will make conservative white makes the villains. Funny thing is, Guilermo del Toro is much whiter than I am! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/37 "2018-01-21T17:24:14Z")
That’s nice. Do you have anything to say about the movie that is the subject of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/38 "2018-01-21T20:02:47Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > BTW, I don’t think the movie ever explicitly said why Giles (Richard Jenkins’ character) had been fired. Is it because he was gay? > [@Mahaloth](#): > > It felt overly long to me. I thought it was going to be about 90-100 minutes, tops, considering the story. This would have been better if edited down a bit. I agree with both of these and think solving both problems could happen at the same time. We could have used about 20 minutes less of Richard Jenkins’ character’s story and shifted that time to more… > [@Randolph](#): > > Saw it, though it was pretty good, but for me it didn’t quite click fully - the buildup to the romance seemed plot-driven, and it seemed to go from scary-mysterious-creature-in-a-tank to poolside-picnics-and-hey-let’s-fuck in a few too few beats. …of showing the romance between Sally Hawkins and Charlie. I may have to watch it again, but the more I sit back and think of it, the more I don’t really see an actual love _between_ the characters. I mostly see it as quite one-sided. Charlie was more interested in her as a new thing (he was keen to explore the world after all) more so than as someone he’s falling in love with. I thought it was a good movie overall, but it could have been more and that’s making me wish there was. > [@california\_jobcase](#): > > I have to add that Doug Jones, the actor in the fish-dude suit, was Charlie Cardinal at BSU back around '80-81. Chirp Chirp! ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/39 "2018-01-21T23:24:40Z")
I usually like del Toro movies but this one was too predictable and frankly boring. It’s basically a different take on Creature From The Black Lagoon with the creature getting the girl. The undertones of bestiality didn’t do much for me either, the heroine is basically screwing a fish. The film just didn’t work for me. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2018, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318/40 "2018-01-21T23:47:05Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It’s basically a different take on Creature From The Black Lagoon with the creature getting the girl. That’s exactly what it is. From an interview with the director in [The Los Angeles Times](http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/movies/la-et-mn-guillermo-del-toro-telluride-20170905-htmlstory.html): > [@](#): > > [Q] Going back to the beginning, what was the initial germ of this movie? > [A] I’ve had this movie in my head since I was 6, not as a story but as an idea. When I saw the creature swimming under Julie Adams [in 1954’s “Creature From the Black Lagoon”], I thought three things: I thought, “Hubba-hubba.” I thought, “This is the most poetic thing I’ll ever see.” I was overwhelmed by the beauty. And the third thing I thought is, “I hope they end up together.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shape-of-water-movie/805318.md?page=3)