# The Shell Game... Wow, Ayn Rand reincarnated... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 24, 2010, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592 "2010-03-24T06:17:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/21 "2010-03-29T13:49:32Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Simpleminded people seem to interpret Rand or Atlas Shrugged to be a glorious celebration of selfishness. That is not the case. It is a thought experiment in what happens if all the smart, ambitious, enterprising and productive people who are constantly berated for being “greed” or “selfish” or “unfair” and are considered fair game for wealth redistribution scheme up and decide to stop producing and leave all the entitled mooches of the world to their own devices. The euphemism “thought experiment” could be applied to almost any piece of propaganda fiction, e.g. _The Turner Diaries_. ---
**Author:** ![snowmaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@snowmaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowmaster)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/22 "2010-03-29T14:24:57Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Allow me to quote myself:It’s not well written _and_ her “philosophy” is poorly thought out. > > Orwell had a point, and a very good one. Rand is for those who think that they are more equal than others… but aren’t. What _Twilight_ is to self delusional 14 year old girls, _Atlas Shrugged_ is to intellectually lazy conservatives. Now hold on just a minute there. The reader, not the author, decides what the book is to them. I don’t mind being called conservative, but is it really necessary to so quickly indict me as intellectually lazy for enjoying the book? That’s a bit out-there for me. Intellectually lazy, to me, more easily fits dislike a novel or writer because we don’t like their politics. For what it’s worth, I’m a big fan of Aaron Sorkin’s work. Not my politics, but very well written. I enjoyed it as a novel, and would have wether or not I found the political bent appealing to me. Excepting Gault’s speech, which ran on just about forever where a good executive summary would have done nicely, it was well written and the characters and their situation told the story, not the author. Who’s next? Will you next opine that Thomas Paine was a bloviating blowhard with far more political agenda than writing talent? L. Ron Hubbard? You’re kidding. You must be kidding. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/23 "2010-03-29T15:54:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Simpleminded people seem to interpret Rand or Atlas Shrugged to be a glorious celebration of selfishness. That is not the case. It is a thought experiment in what happens if all the smart, ambitious, enterprising and productive people who are constantly berated for being “greed” or “selfish” or “unfair” and are considered fair game for wealth redistribution scheme up and decide to stop producing and leave all the entitled mooches of the world to their own devices. What you’re describing is a “glorious celebration of selfishness.” Not a characterization Rand would have disputed, either. She called one of her **books** _The Virtue of Selfishness._ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/24 "2010-03-29T17:49:29Z")
I’m not going to say that every fan of Rand’s work is self-deluded. But face facts, her philosophy is designed to appeal to people that have a falsely inflated idea of their abilities. It tells them that they haven’t failed because they lack any genuine talent - they failed because society fears their talents and is working to hold them back. Their failure to succeed becomes proof of their superiority. The counterargument to Rand is that plenty of people do succeed in modern society. Why did the masses allow them to rise while holding others down? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/25 "2010-03-29T21:39:28Z")
> [@A Monkey With a Gun](#): > > Allow me to quote myself:It’s not well written _and_ her “philosophy” is poorly thought out. > > Orwell had a point, and a very good one. Rand is for those who think that they are more equal than others… but aren’t. What _Twilight_ is to self delusional 14 year old girls, _Atlas Shrugged_ is to intellectually lazy conservatives. We get it. You don’t like it. What in particular do you not like about her philosophy? And please don’t just go into another incoherent rant. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What you’re describing is a “glorious celebration of selfishness.” > > Not a characterization Rand would have disputed, either. She called one of her books The Virtue of Selfishness. Fair enough. Maybe a better way of saying it was that Rand believed that enlightened self interest was a good thing and that in a free society people should not be forced to act against their own interests. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > I’m not going to say that every fan of Rand’s work is self-deluded. But face facts, her philosophy is designed to appeal to people that have a falsely inflated idea of their abilities. It tells them that they haven’t failed because they lack any genuine talent - they failed because society fears their talents and is working to hold them back. Their failure to succeed becomes proof of their superiority. > > The counterargument to Rand is that plenty of people do succeed in modern society. Why did the masses allow them to rise while holding others down? I would say her philosophy appeals to people who believe that hard work, ingenuity and a track record of success is and should be the way to get ahead in this world. Jobs or contracts should go to the best qualified, not who has the best connections or most politically acceptable. The flaw in her writing is that there are only two types of people. Supermen/women like Dagny Taggart or Hank Reardon who are singleminded of purpose and corrupt half-wits like Mouche or the other Taggart. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/26 "2010-03-29T22:49:29Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > We get it. You don’t like it. What in particular do you not like about her philosophy? And please don’t just go into another incoherent rant. Funny, I thought my rants were coherent. Anyway, you’re not getting it. If it was just a political screed that would be one thing, but it’s a political screed that is poorly plotted and badly written. My previous posts have commented on the stupid rapture -\> tribulation -\> paradise plot, so I’ll leave that be for now. I could talk about how _Atlas Shrugged_ is a rough sex romance without any actual sex or romance. I could talk about the one dimensional characters. I could mention the train crash where she blames the victims (apparently, if you don’t have the right politics you should die). Instead though, I’ll focus on the writing itself here. Let’s look at a couple of quotes from the thing: > [@](#): > > “His glance was now like the hands of a man hanging over an abyss, groping frantically for the slightest fissure of doubt, but slipping on the clean, polished rock of her face.” Ug… Just ug. That is some of the most overwrought prose I have ever come across. The whole book is like that. The damn thing just will not stop. It screams trying _way_ too hard. > [@](#): > > “The art shows, where she saw the kind of drawings she had seen chalked on any pavement of her childhood slums—the novels, that purported to prove the futility of science, industry, civilization and love, using language that her father would not have used in his drunkenest moments—the magazines that propounded **cowardly generalities** , less clear and more stale than…” Ha! Now we have a side of hypocrisy to go with our overwrought prose. Too funny. You also have to love the word “drunkenest” Finally, there’s this: > [@](#): > > “I’ve chosen a special mission of my own. I’m after a man whom I want to destroy. He died many centuries ago, but until the last trace of him is wiped out of men’s minds, we will not have a decent world to live in.” > “What man?” > "Robin Hood. No more! For the love of God, no mas! I’m begging you, Ms. Rand, just make it stop! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/27 "2010-03-29T23:44:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not going to say that every fan of Rand’s work is self-deluded. But face facts, her philosophy is designed to appeal to people that have a falsely inflated idea of their abilities. It tells them that they haven’t failed because they lack any genuine talent - they failed because society fears their talents and is working to hold them back. Their failure to succeed becomes proof of their superiority. > > The counterargument to Rand is that plenty of people do succeed in modern society. Why did the masses allow them to rise while holding others down? In _The Fountainhead,_ the answer is the influence of LW intellectuals like Ellsworth Toohey (the Anti-Roark), who makes it his life’s work to suppress excellence and exalt mediocrity. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/28 "2010-03-30T02:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > I would say her philosophy appeals to people who believe that hard work, ingenuity and a track record of success is and should be the way to get ahead in this world. Jobs or contracts should go to the best qualified, not who has the best connections or most politically acceptable. Try to find anyone who disagrees with this. Pretty much everyone thinks that the best people should get ahead based on their merits. The difference between Randians and the rest of us is that we think that’s how it’s working now. Superior abilities are generally recognized and rewarded by society. Rand and her followers say that the masses are jealous of those who have superior abilities and hold them down. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/29 "2010-03-31T01:20:57Z")
**A Monkey With a Gun** - You will get no argument from me that Atlas Shrugged is a painful read. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Try to find anyone who disagrees with this. Pretty much everyone thinks that the best people should get ahead based on their merits. > > The difference between Randians and the rest of us is that we think that’s how it’s working now. Superior abilities are generally recognized and rewarded by society. Rand and her followers say that the masses are jealous of those who have superior abilities and hold them down. I don’t know that most people do believe in a meritocracy. At least they don’t act as if they are being evaluated or rewarded based on their job performance. I don’t think it’s about jealousy either. It’s about entitlement. Randians see a rich businessman in his big house and say “some day I’ll have a house like that.” Some other people look at the same businessman in the same house and say “some day I’m gonna get that jerk!”. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/30 "2010-03-31T04:36:41Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > **A Monkey With a Gun** - You will get no argument from me that Atlas Shrugged is a painful read.. And that’s why **leaper** compared _The Shell Game_ to _Atlas Shrugged_. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/31 "2010-03-31T14:31:31Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know that most people do believe in a meritocracy. At least they don’t act as if they are being evaluated or rewarded based on their job performance. > > I don’t think it’s about jealousy either. It’s about entitlement. Randians see a rich businessman in his big house and say “some day I’ll have a house like that.” Some other people look at the same businessman in the same house and say “some day I’m gonna get that jerk!”. No, Randians only imagine that people think like that. There’s actually very little success-based hatred in America. People want to join the rich not tear them down. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/32 "2010-03-31T14:39:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t think it’s about jealousy either. It’s about entitlement. Randians see a rich businessman in his big house and say “some day I’ll have a house like that.” Some other people look at the same businessman in the same house and say “some day I’m gonna get that jerk!”. In that case, it is the non-Randians who have the more realistic hope. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/33 "2010-03-31T15:18:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I don’t know that most people do believe in a meritocracy. I think most people in the US believe in meritocracy. But I also think a lot of people are really frustrated that we don’t actually have a meritocracy. Or at least we have a very imperfect one. Inherited wealth interferes with meritocracy. Cronyism and nepotism interfere with meritocracy. Poverty interferes with meritocracy. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/34 "2010-03-31T16:22:16Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I think most people in the US believe in meritocracy. But I also think a lot of people are really frustrated that we don’t actually have a meritocracy. Or at least we have a very imperfect one. Inherited wealth interferes with meritocracy. Cronyism and nepotism interfere with meritocracy. Poverty interferes with meritocracy. That was basically one of the major themes of Atlas Shrugged. Cronyism and nepotism ultimately creates poverty by placing incompetant or less than most competant people in positions of power and authority. An economy can’t function if hard working and smart people can’t find work because jobs go to lazy and incompetant cronies and idiot nephews. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/35 "2010-03-31T17:30:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > That was basically one of the major themes of Atlas Shrugged. Cronyism and nepotism ultimately creates poverty by placing incompetant or less than most competant people in positions of power and authority. An economy can’t function if hard working and smart people can’t find work because jobs go to lazy and incompetant cronies and idiot nephews. Of course, free-market capitalism is no more resistant than Stalinism is to cronyism and nepotism. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/36 "2010-03-31T18:07:43Z")
> [@snowmaster](#): > > L. Ron Hubbard? You’re kidding. You must be kidding. I used a bit of hyperbole, but not really that much. So no, I _wasn’t_ kidding. Well, maybe a little. Scientologists will read some baaaad novels just because they were written by Hubbard. Anybody that doesn’t like the book obviously doesn’t understand the deeper meaning. Adherents of Rand are the same way. Just look at **msmith537** ’s response to the O.P. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592/37 "2010-03-31T23:18:32Z")
and another thing > [@athelas](#): > > Political opposition -\> visceral dislike -\> finding evidence to legitimize dislike as “bad writing.” > > This applies regardless of the actual quality of the writing. I like Orwell, but Rand is crap. Similar politics, but one is written for adults (Orwell’s talking animals were even more adult) and the other is written for kids who want to be adults. Rand’s themes always come back to “why won’t somebody understand me?” It’s childish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shell-game-wow-ayn-rand-reincarnated/533592.md?page=1)