# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/181 "2023-01-09T05:46:10Z")
This would be remarkable _if_ Switzerland was _otherwise_ some kind of paragon of progressiveness, but it’s a deeply conservative country in many ways - I mean, the last canton to give women equal voting rights did it _in 1990_ - or should I say, _was made to do it_ by the Supreme Court. That, plus it’s easier to ignore this kind of thing in a second language. ---
**Author:** ![Jakey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@Jakey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jakey)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/182 "2023-01-09T09:29:42Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > I blame the British! (note they are also responsible for phrases like “French leave,” “French postcards,” "the French disease, etc.) How about the French Letter - which is English slang for a condom - very ironic because the French slang for a condom is Capote Anglaise (an English hood). ---
**Author:** ![its\_the\_daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bb73d2/32.png) [@its\_the\_daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/its_the_daddy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/183 "2023-01-09T09:53:31Z")
I humbly apologise for introducing the term ‘Italian tune-up’ into another thread. My own perspective has changed over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/184 "2023-01-09T12:43:34Z")
Knew I was forgetting one. Thanks ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/185 "2023-01-09T13:22:35Z")
> [@Jakey](#): > > > [@Andy\_L](#): > > > > I blame the British! (note they are also responsible for phrases like “French leave,” “French postcards,” "the French disease, etc.) > > How about the French Letter - which is English slang for a condom - very ironic because the French slang for a condom is Capote Anglaise (an English hood). Don’t forget the “French Mistake”. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/186 "2023-01-09T15:17:21Z")
> [@Jakey](#): > > How about the French Letter - which is English slang for a condom - very ironic because the French slang for a condom is Capote Anglaise (an English hood). Wasn’t there a similar case in naming syphilis, which was called French disease, English disease and maybe other _Nationality X disease_, depending on who the enemy of the speaker’s nation was? ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/187 "2023-01-09T15:42:53Z")
At work last year, we had a Zoom conference for LGBTQ Awareness month with featured lecturers. I asked in chat why they used “Queer” in their terminology, as I thought it was a term of disrespect. How do they feel if heteros call them that? They responded they took “Queer” back, and it depended on the context of the conversation as far as het usage goes. I’ve had gay friends, but I could never call them “Queer.” I’m not even sure why it’s considered distinct from the “LG” part, but I’ll just leave it alone. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/188 "2023-01-09T16:10:18Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > I’ve had gay friends, but I could never call them “Queer.” Yeah, I would say something like “So-and-so identifies as queer” if I knew that to be the case, but I wouldn’t be comfortable at present using “So-and-so is queer” as a neutral descriptor. The noun form, of course, as in “So-and-so is a queer” or “one of the queers” etc., is right the fuck out. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/189 "2023-01-10T00:24:57Z")
I recently heard a woman in her 80s use the expression “that was a bit Irish” to mean it was backwards or odd - very similar to what you described here. Probably considered harmless by her (and with no ill intent) but not acceptable today due to the pejorative connotation. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/190 "2023-01-10T14:49:03Z")
The expression [“Irish bull”,](https://prorhetoric.com/what-is-irish-bull/amp/) meaning a lapsus logicae along the lines of “Please let me know if you don’t receive this letter” or “Half the lies our opponents tell about us are untrue”, used to be pretty common in English. ---
**Author:** ![excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e8c25b/32.png) [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/excavating_for_a_mind)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/191 "2023-01-10T16:00:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Anyone wanna explain “piker”? I’m a bit late to this party (a “California Guest?”), but I am surprised at this one, as I hear it all the time. I first encountered it, as in, “Don’t pay any attention to Bobby, he’s just a piker,” when I went to college in East Tennessee. In the mountains, a pike is a well-built road leading between towns, like a highway except not as heavily traveled. It would be used in phrases like, “Jim always gets excited about the latest thing to come down the pike,” but it was also a description used in giving directions, such as, “Stay on this road until you get to the ridge cut, where you’ll hit the pike, and take a left to get to Jasonville.” A piker was someone who came in from the pike. In a rural situation, it was someone from the Big City who knew something about city things and talked like he knew everything. Usually trying to pull a fast one but was clueless about what was actually going on. In the city, a piker was someone who came in from the hills, whose knowledge about anything outside those hills was to be questioned. In either situation, a piker meant someone who was trying to behave as if they were knowledgeable, but wasn’t. Similar to a poser. Of course, in East Tennessee, racism was not very prevalent, so I never imagined a racist angle to it. Either city or rural, most people were of English descent and likely related to one another within 10 generations or so. I had a professor who liked to tell the story of going to the big store in Knoxville (or was it Chattanooga?) as a child and seeing a water fountain with a sign that said “Colored” on it. He walked over to it and turned it on, expecting to see colored water come out of it since he has never seen colored water before. I suspect it may be different, now. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/192 "2023-01-10T18:54:32Z")
> [@excavating\_for\_a\_mind](#): > > I’m a bit late to this party (a “California Guest?”), but I am surprised at this one, as I hear it all the time. Thank you. I dunno why it could be racist, but I suspect an autocorrect for a British term. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/193 "2023-01-10T20:49:16Z")
Yeah, I’m pretty comfortable with “queer” as a descriptor for non-cis-het in general. In fact, I much prefer it to ltbtq(ia?)(+?), as it’s compact, monosyllabic and unchanging. But saying “Bob is queer” would feel weird (I mean, if I know Bob, and know him well enough to know that he’s queer, presumably I know whether he’s gay vs bi vs trans). And saying “Bob is _a_ queer” feels downright bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/194 "2023-01-11T08:09:18Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > But saying “Bob is queer” would feel weird (I mean, if I know Bob, and know him well enough to know that he’s queer, presumably I know whether he’s gay vs bi vs trans) But he can be queer and none of those things (or multiples of them - gay/bi and trans are not mutually exclusive, for instance). Some of the people I know call themselves queer because they’re some combo of genderfluid and non-het sexuality. “Genderqueer” seems quite popular at the moment. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > saying “Bob is _a_ queer” feels downright bigoted. That’s true. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/195 "2023-01-11T17:40:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But he can be queer and none of those things (or multiples of them - gay/bi and trans are not mutually exclusive, for instance). Some of the people I know call themselves queer because they’re some combo of genderfluid and non-het sexuality. “Genderqueer” seems quite popular at the moment. Oh, sure, if Bob specifically identifies as “queer” I’ll happily call him (them?) that. I’m just saying that if I know Bob to be a cis gay man, and he identifies as gay, referring to him as “queer” instead of “gay” would feel a bit weird, even if I would be perfectly happy to use the word “queer” to describe the larger non-cis-het community which he is a member of. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/196 "2023-01-11T17:47:22Z")
I won’t refer to someone as queer unless they specifically identify that way. I will refer to a group of people as queer if all of them aren’t cis-het. Like “queer people tend to vote for Democrats” or “that neighborhood has a large queer population”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/197 "2023-01-11T18:30:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > he identifies as gay, referring to him as “queer” instead of “gay” would feel a bit weird > [@hajario](#): > > I won’t refer to someone as queer unless they specifically identify that way Definitely this. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/198 "2023-01-12T11:07:15Z")
One I thought of the other day: “Holy cow”, itself a euphemism for “Holy shit”, is to some degree mocking the idea of a sacred tradition involving cows. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/199 "2023-01-12T11:54:54Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > for “Holy shit” I would have thought that both of them are euphemisms for something more explicitly Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/200 "2023-01-12T18:55:02Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > mocking the idea of a sacred tradition involving cows But that’s not racism - unless it’s part of a tendency to specifically mock the preposterous religious beliefs of brown people while elevating the equally preposterous religious beliefs of White people. I think there’s a time and place to mock religion and a time and place to be respectful and considerate, and deprecating this could fall more into the “don’t be a jerk” category than the “don’t be a racist” category. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=11)