# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/21 "2023-01-07T21:08:30Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Powwow is still just fine as a term for a North American Indian ceremony. Sure, but of all the times you have heard the word in your life, how many referred to that? Of those, how many were _not_ in the dialog of a Western movie? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/22 "2023-01-07T21:12:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Sure, but of all the times you have heard the word in your life, how many referred to that? Local and associated tribes hold a Powwow not that far from where I live, and I have a couple friends that go, and non-natives are invited . (Maybe not to everything) I don’t remember it ever being used in a work environment. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/23 "2023-01-07T21:17:15Z")
I wonder about “Dutch” , for the cheap alternative. Dutch oven, going dutch, dutch apple pie. All are about a sort of skimpy version. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/24 "2023-01-07T21:17:55Z")
But of course obviously nobody was suggesting that Native Americans cannot continue to use their own language. It’s casual disrespectful appropriation that’s the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/25 "2023-01-07T21:23:09Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I wonder about “Dutch” , for the cheap alternative. Dutch oven, going dutch, dutch apple pie. All are about a sort of skimpy version. I thought Dutch apple pie just referred to the topping, with the “Dutch” part referencing actual cultural origins (albeit possibly apocryphal)? In what sense is it skimpy? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/26 "2023-01-07T21:27:17Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Yeah, that’s one that kind of befuddles me. The terms aren’t specifically racist, and most slavery in the past and present isn’t based on skin color. Yes, but slavery is bad all by itself, regardless of whether or not it’s based on race. So policing (there I go!) your language to eliminate metaphors based on unpleasant concepts isn’t necessarily restricted to specifically racist concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/27 "2023-01-07T21:31:31Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Dutch oven When did Dutch Ovens become “cheap”? I’ve never once thought that. I think of them as something you only buy once you’re “settled™”, like a grown-up. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/28 "2023-01-07T21:40:58Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > the disabled → disabled people → people with disabilities In circles where I travel, quite often the onus isn’t even put on people. It’s the environment that has “Issues with access.” ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/29 "2023-01-07T21:41:13Z")
Ehh, in many cases it’s accurate in IT. I suppose you could use manager/worker instead. It just seems like an odd thing to worry about. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/30 "2023-01-07T21:43:12Z")
I think it is a “oven” for people that don’t have an oven. A make-shift oven. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/31 "2023-01-07T21:44:47Z")
And I’ve literally never heard this notion before. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/32 "2023-01-07T21:45:15Z")
The internet seems to have a lot of different opinions about what it is and where it came from. I always interpreted the missing a top crust as sort of cheap, like a way to make a pie wirh hlaf as much butter (likely the moat expensive ingredient). But no one seems to have a definitive answer. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/33 "2023-01-07T21:50:06Z")
Apparently at some point in recent enough history, people in England referred to anything cheap, undesirable, poorly executed, etc. as “Dutch,” sort of the way English-speaking Americans used a pejorative word for people from Poland. Have no idea of the origin of the enmity, nor whether it was returned. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/34 "2023-01-07T21:50:10Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There has been a widespread shift away from using potentially dehumanizing/depersonalizing derived nouns toward the use of adjective+person constructions, and most recently (in some cases) to prefer “person first” terminology, e.g. Yeah. I can’t wait to see the shift in HR from employees to persons who are employed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/35 "2023-01-07T21:51:13Z")
“Humans that are resources.” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/36 "2023-01-07T21:51:47Z")
The internet seems to think that the term “Dutch Oven” was applied because it was cheaper to produce and part of the process was inspired by Dutch techniques. But given that there was a stereotype of Dutch = cheap, I wonder if that us beibg disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/37 "2023-01-07T21:52:25Z")
According to wiki, the term ‘Dutch oven’ derives from an improved manufacturing process used by Dutch craftsmen. The _opposite_ of ‘cheap’. I suspect that people conflated it with other ‘Dutch’ terms, like ‘going Dutch’. So, not pejorative in origin, but made pejorative by Gresham’s Law applied to language (bad meanings drive out the good). ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/38 "2023-01-07T21:53:57Z")
Is deprecating master/slave in part because it is potentially triggering, rather than because it is intrinsically racist? Another consideration is whether racists will use terminology that is _intrinsically_ innocuous as dog whistles. Consider the infamous case of the word _niggardly_, for example. It doesn’t matter how much people protest that it’s etymologically unrelated, and that it’s “ignorant” to deprecate it. You just _know_ that racists will abuse that excuse in order to use it as a dog whistle while pleading innocence, and if you yourself choose to continue using it, consider that people will look at you askance and wonder. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/39 "2023-01-07T21:54:11Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > When did Dutch Ovens become “cheap”? When did Dutch Ovens start referring to actual ovens? I thought it was when you hold someone’s head under the bedsheets and fart. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/40 "2023-01-07T21:56:17Z")
> [@F.U.Shakespeare](#): > > The _opposite_ of ‘cheap’. Particularly in light of [this passage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven#American_history): > Colonists and settlers valued [cast-iron cookware](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cast-iron_cookware) because of its versatility and durability. Cooks used them to boil, bake, stew, fry, and roast. The ovens were so valuable that wills in the 18th and 19th centuries frequently spelled out the desired inheritor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=3)