# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/41 "2023-01-07T22:02:23Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There has been a widespread shift away from using potentially dehumanizing/depersonalizing derived nouns toward the use of adjective+person constructions, and most recently (in some cases) to prefer “person first” terminology, e.g. Personally, I feel that “person-first” terminology is more demeaning, not less. It’s a sort of construction that’s very rare in English, which means that it’s calling attention to the differences. And further, it’s never used for traits that are considered positive or neutral, only for terms that are often considered negative. If I need help getting something off a high shelf, I don’t ask for a “person of height”; I ask for a tall person, because that’s how English works. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Local and associated tribes hold a Powwow not that far from where I live, and I have a couple friends that go, and non-natives are invited . (Maybe not to everything) > I don’t remember it ever being used in a work environment. The fact that you live in an area with a significant Native American population might be the reason why you’ve never encountered it used in other contexts, because the folks there have been told better. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/42 "2023-01-07T22:08:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact that you live in an area with a significant Native American population might be the reason why you’ve never encountered it used in other contexts, because the folks there have been told better. I suspect “powwow” getting used as slang was on its way out, not necessarily because people are more enlightened about race, but because Westerns aren’t a huge fixture in our popular culture anymore, and terms that entered the lexicon through Westerns don’t feel relevant anymore. It would never occur to me to refer to a meeting as a “powwow,” not because I’m particularly sensitive to the feelings of Native Americans, but because I don’t have first-hand memories of the Eisenhauer administration. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/43 "2023-01-07T22:11:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > . It would never occur to me to refer to a meeting as a “powwow,” not because I’m particularly sensitive to the feelings of Native Americans, but because I don’t have first-hand memories of the Eisenhauer administration. I barely remember “Ike” except his very catchy election button phrase. But yeah, I would never think of using the term that way. I think we used it in Boy Scouts, but again, that is different. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/44 "2023-01-07T22:13:16Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Another consideration is whether racists will use terminology that is _intrinsically_ innocuous as dog whistles. Consider the infamous case of the word _niggardly_, for example. It doesn’t matter how much people protest that it’s etymologically unrelated, and that it’s “ignorant” to deprecate it. You know they’ll just find another dogwhistle, right? And this is how we all hop aboard the euphemism treadmill. We switch to a new word or phrase because the old one has negative connotations, but eventually the new word has similar connotations to the old word, so we switch again. Languages change, so I guess that’s okay. > [@Riemann](#): > > Is deprecating master/slave in part because it is potentially triggering, rather than because it is intrinsically racist? Who the hell is triggered by the phrase master bedroom? Or has triggered pretty much been diluted to mean anything someone doesn’t like? Like if I go to my mother’s for Sunday dinner, can I be triggred by her meatloaf? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/45 "2023-01-07T22:26:09Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Who the hell is triggered by the phrase master bedroom? Nobody (I think). I suspect it’s a kind of hypercorrection going on - a desire to avoid use of the word slave, hence avoiding it where it’s used in the master-slave construction, leading to people wondering if _master bedroom_ is problematic. It does seem like rather pathetic window dressing, but nobody wants be _that guy_ who deprecates appropriate changes just because there are _also_ much bigger issues. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/46 "2023-01-07T22:35:40Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Who the hell is triggered by the phrase master bedroom? Or has triggered pretty much been diluted to mean anything someone doesn’t like? Like if I go to my mother’s for Sunday dinner, can I be triggred by her meatloaf? - That depends on your opinion of Jim Steinman’s music. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/47 "2023-01-07T22:46:05Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I wonder about “Dutch” , for the cheap alternative. Dutch oven, going dutch, dutch apple pie. All are about a sort of skimpy version. A “dutch oven” is NOT a “cheap alternative”. It’s a very specific type of cooking gear. The name derives from a metal-working process to produce them that was of Dutch origin and is in no way a slur or insult, no more than calling ceramic dinnerware “china” would be insulting. > [@MandaJo](#): > > I think it is a “oven” for people that don’t have an oven. A make-shift oven. No, it’s not. It’s a type of cooking pot. While they can be used in something like a campfire they can also be used in a conventional oven. Honestly, it’s like saying a wok is a “make-shift frying pan” because it can be used over a variety of heat sources. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/48 "2023-01-07T23:09:17Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Like if I go to my mother’s for Sunday dinner, can I be triggred by her meatloaf? Clearly you’re never had _my_ mom’s meatloaf. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/49 "2023-01-07T23:39:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Native-American related ones like powwow and Indian giver are already on the way out. To agree with a poster above, “Indian giver” would very much be considered offensive these days, at least around here. I also haven’t heard it in at least a couple of decades. We also sat “Indian style” (cross-legged) as kids in the 80s, but I haven’t heard that term since then. My kids were taught “criss-cross applesauce” or just “cross-legged.” While we’re at it, I also have not heard anyone refer to “Indian summer” in awhile, either. Like maybe 10-15 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![Tzigone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Tzigone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tzigone)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/50 "2023-01-07T23:41:24Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > There’s been a shift from referring to people as slaves and instead referring to them as enslaved persons. True. While the “person” in the title aspect is likely a thing, though, I think the more important aspect of this terminology is that it emphasized that someone enslaved them. It was an action done to them, rather than just something they were. Likewise, there’s at least some people using “enslavers” instead of “slave owners” and I can see where they are coming from. Though I suppose some may debate whether an inheritor actually enslaved someone. Gotta admit to still defaulting to the language I grew up with in that respect, though. And in a few others. I’ve definitely changed some terms, and will try to continue to use those that make sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/51 "2023-01-07T23:55:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > > [@Odesio](#): > > > > Who the hell is triggered by the phrase master bedroom? > > Nobody (I think). I suspect it’s a kind of hypercorrection going on - a desire to avoid use of the word slave, hence avoiding it where it’s used in the master-slave construction, leading to people wondering if _master bedroom_ is problematic. It does seem like rather pathetic window dressing, but nobody wants be _that guy_ who deprecates appropriate changes just because there are _also_ much bigger issues. I agree. Adobe did that and go rid of “master pages” and changed to “parent pages.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/52 "2023-01-07T23:57:31Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > While we’re at it, I also have not heard anyone refer to “Indian summer” in awhile, either. Like maybe 10-15 years or so. There seem to be 4 or 5 hypotheses for the origin of this. None of them strike me as offensive _per se_, so I assume that deprecating this is just because we don’t use “Indian” at all now? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/53 "2023-01-08T00:01:05Z")
No idea. Never got a memo about it. Just noticed I don’t hear it used at all anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/54 "2023-01-08T00:10:41Z")
The Grand Canyon NP just changed the name of the famous campsite on the Bright Angel Trail from _Indian Garden_ to _Havasupai Garden_. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/55 "2023-01-08T00:10:45Z")
“Dutch” in those old phrases seems to be a way of saying “not quite standard” - whether talking about an oven, an uncle, a door or a treat. It’s similar to the way that “Indian” is used - “Indian corn” isn’t regular corn, Indian summer isn’t a regular summer, etc. (note in other countries similar weather is called “poor-man’s summer”). So both uses are somewhat dismissive, suggesting that the foreign folk aren’t quite normal and neither are things associated with them. I blame the British! (note they are also responsible for phrases like “French leave,” “French postcards,” "the French disease, etc.) ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/56 "2023-01-08T00:31:51Z")
I’m not sure about Dutch oven - but the “going Dutch” and Dutch apple pie have as much to do ( or more) with being fake or inauthentic as cheapness. " Going Dutch" refers to “Dutch treat” which is no treat at all , as each person pays for themself. " Dutch apple pie" refers to something that has only one crust so it’s not really a pie. \* A “Dutch uncle” is someone who makes critical comments while “avuncular” more or less implies kindness and patience. “Dutch courage” comes from being drunk . \* Dutch Apple pie is not a lot of things - I don’t know of and haven’t found anything else that has a pastry crust on the bottom and a streusel/crisp topping. Cobblers and crisps and crumbles don’t have a bottom crust and tarts have _only_ a bottom crust. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/57 "2023-01-08T00:34:23Z")
IOW, Dutch apple pie is a tarted-up tart. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/58 "2023-01-08T00:36:17Z")
Some great examples there. In that context, it is certainly hard to believe that “Dutch” apple pie has an innocent origin as just a “variant” topping. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/59 "2023-01-08T00:37:58Z")
Can I say I love Dutch apple pie? And now, I’m drooling… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/60 "2023-01-08T00:38:45Z")
Me too. I’m fairly sure that nobody is advocating that the actual _pie_ be banned from polite society. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=4)