# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/61 "2023-01-08T00:40:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Personally, I feel that “person-first” terminology is more demeaning, not less. It’s a sort of construction that’s very rare in English, which means that it’s calling attention to the differences. And further, it’s never used for traits that are considered positive or neutral, only for terms that are often considered negative. If I need help getting something off a high shelf, I don’t ask for a “person of height”; I ask for a tall person, because that’s how English works. I don’t like it either. I think I’m used to “person of color” but I believe economy is critical to effective communication. All these extra words are cumbersome. I can see the arguments in favor as well, but it’s not clear-cut to me that this is inherently better or more respectful or consciousness-raising. Personally, I feel equal amounts of horror and righteous outrage when I hear “slave” vs. “enslaved person.” And as you suggest… it’s so damned othering. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Cakewalk as a term has clearly changed meanings. Few would know it’s origins anyway. If few people knew its origins, I wouldn’t have heard about it. I don’t exactly have my finger on the pulse of popular culture. This was roundly discussed on social media, probably a Buzzfeed list somewhere, so I would bet young people know a lot more about its origins than older people… hence it’s on the way out, and you won’t hear it come out of my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/62 "2023-01-08T00:42:08Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think I’ve heard people use the expression _local color_ in a euphemistic/ironic way to refer to “undesirable” aspects of an area - homeless people, drug users, even ostentatious Trump supporters. This is how I was intending it, but also thinking it could be misconstrued in a way I didn’t want it to be. Since it was on my mind today, I’m at the local big box store and a guy was helping me, he needed to finish what he was working on at the other end of the aisle and while there, another person asked for his help. I’m thinking 'my guy has been ‘shanghaied’…and wondered about THAT, too. > Verb: force (someone) to join a ship lacking a full crew by drugging them or using other underhanded means: > > “they specialized in drugging and robbing sailors, sometimes arranging for them to be shanghaied aboard tramp boats” Likewise, the exclamation ‘Man, that’s LAAAAME!’ is something we’ve used for years, and now it’s fallen out of favor from being ableist. So to amend the OP, the phrases could be racist, or ableist, or just unexpectedly offensive with the passing of time. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/63 "2023-01-08T00:47:20Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I don’t like it either. I think I’m used to “person of color” but I believe economy is critical to effective communication. All these extra words are cumbersome Yep, that’s why things move back and forth. “People of color” can become “BIPOC”. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/64 "2023-01-08T00:50:00Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Me too. I’m fairly sure that nobody is advocating that the actual _pie_ be banned from polite society. All I can say is they better not! ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/65 "2023-01-08T00:50:06Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > “People of color” can become “BIPOC”. Yeah, but BIPOC excludes a lot of people of color. Hispanic people and Asians, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/66 "2023-01-08T00:50:17Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There seem to be 4 or 5 hypotheses for the origin of this. None of them strike me as offensive _per se_, so I assume that deprecating this is just because we don’t use “Indian” at all now? Native American stuff is interesting…here in Colorado, we’re renaming [Squaw Mountain](https://www.cbsnews.com/colorado/news/mestaaehehe-mountain-squaw-mountain-colorado-renaming/) and when the reasoning was explained, I found I didn’t have a feeling one way or the other, so leave the debate to those who do. At the same time, things like Washington Redskins are being changed, and I wonder about Indian Motorcycles, because man, it’s ICONIC, and not in any way negative. They’re AWESOME bikes with an AWESOME brand. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/67 "2023-01-08T00:54:25Z")
I was bitching to some 20-something coworkers about how my 59 year old knees made it impossible to sit Indian style. Boy, did they cringe. Now I know better. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/68 "2023-01-08T01:06:21Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > BIPOC excludes a lot of people of color. Hispanic people and Asians I tend to hear it used as a general acronym for “people of color”; I know POC exists, but I never _hear_ that, though occasionally read it. Also, I think it’s “Black, Indigenous, and People of Color”, not “Black and Indigenous People of Color”. So covering all POC, but emphasizing two of the groups. I’m perfectly happy taking instructions on what to call a group of people from that group of people. Indian is complex though, as some Native American groups like the term, and others don’t. The excellent advice given when not being sure how to refer to a person or group is “ask”. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/69 "2023-01-08T01:11:38Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > Also, I think it’s “Black, Indigenous, and People of Color”, not “Black and Indigenous People of Color”. So covering all POC, but emphasizing two of the groups. Oh. Good to know. As a grant writer for a progressive organization, I actually use this kind of language all the time - whatever kind of language my organization and/or the funders expect me to use. I would write Latinx in a grant for example, despite feeling pretty strongly that it’s a niche elite academic term that many actual Latinos take offense to and very few even use. So I have to know what the most progressive language is. And I am a progressive. But my personal feelings about specific expressions do not always reflect what I write. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/70 "2023-01-08T01:29:11Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Dutch apple pie" refers to something that has only one crust so it’s not really a pie. \* A “Dutch uncle” is someone who makes critical comments while “avuncular” more or less implies kindness and patience. “Dutch courage” comes from being drunk . I think it needs to be considered if the connotation is positive or not as to whether it would be taken as racist. Things like “Dutch apple pie” and “Dutch oven” are seen in a neutral or positive light, so they are not likely to offend. But “Going Dutch”, “Dutch Uncle”, and “Dutch courage” can have a negative connotation, which could possibly offend someone who is Dutch. As an example, consider if these terms were in wide use: - **Swiss time** - Closely sticking to the appointed time. e.g. “This is an important plan. I need everyone to keep Swiss time so we get it all done” - **Mexican time** - Loosely paying attention to defined times, e.g. “Don’t wait for Bob. He’s on Mexican time and always late” I would suspect that “Swiss time” would generally be fine but “Mexican time” would be frowned upon. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/71 "2023-01-08T01:50:49Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > **Mexican time** - Loosely paying attention to defined times, e.g. “Don’t wait for Bob. He’s on Mexican time and always late” Surprisingly, I’ve never heard that one, but I am familiar with “Indian Standard Time” (as in South Asians) and that one I hear only from South Asians themselves. There’s also the more generic “island time” (not in reference to Indians, of course, but the general flexible nature of time in some island communities.) ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/72 "2023-01-08T02:06:18Z")
Yeah I’ve _never_ heard Swiss time or Mexican time. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/73 "2023-01-08T02:08:09Z")
I think those two were made up as an example of what might or might not be acceptable. On the other hand, I’ve often used “a Jewish 3:30” to mean any time before 5:00. And yes, I’m Jewish, but I wouldn’t take offense at it. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/74 "2023-01-08T02:11:44Z")
Guess I was whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/75 "2023-01-08T02:24:34Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > I tend to hear it used as a general acronym for “people of color”; I know POC exists, but I never _hear_ that, though occasionally read it. POC is too close to colored for me. It’s like queer, I know some people identify as queer, but I’m sure as hell not going to call someone queer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/76 "2023-01-08T02:36:40Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > What’s the racist origin to cake walk? - > > Surprised the hell out of me, too. That explanation indicates that the origin is from black culture. It doesn’t seem racist, however, unless I’m missing something. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/77 "2023-01-08T02:38:02Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I think those two were made up as an example of what might or might not be acceptable. Yeah, I was just making up country time terms to demonstrate the example that it would be viewed as racist if the connotation was negative, but generally be fine if the connotation was positive. The problem is not necessarily that a country name is part of the term. The problem is if the term is seen as negative, then someone from that country may be offended. If the term is positive, then people from that country aren’t likely to be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/78 "2023-01-08T02:44:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Horatius](#): > > > > When did Dutch Ovens become “cheap”? > > When did Dutch Ovens start referring to actual ovens? I thought it was when you hold someone’s head under the bedsheets and fart. At least 200 years ago. > **[Dutch oven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_oven)** > > A Dutch oven (US English) or casserole dish (international) is a thick-walled cooking pot with a tight-fitting lid. Dutch ovens are usually made of seasoned cast iron; however, some Dutch ovens are instead made of cast aluminum, or ceramic. Some metal varieties are enameled rather than being seasoned, and these are sometimes called French ovens. The international name casserole dish is from the French casserole which means "cooking pot" (although in French these pots are known as cocottes). They ... > **[Dutch oven - Wiktionary, the free dictionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Dutch_oven#Noun)** > - **1780** , [William Cowper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Cowper), letter, 5 June: > > I heard the most uncommon and unaccountable noise that can be imagined. It was, in fact, occasioned by the clattering of tin pattypans and a **Dutch oven** against the sides of the panniers. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/79 "2023-01-08T03:16:09Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > I’m thinking 'my guy has been ‘shanghaied’…and wondered about THAT, too. That was less about who was doing it, [and more about where they were (supposedly) going to end up](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghaiing#Etymology). I imagine “Shanghai” was the farthest away city most of them had ever heard of. > The verb “shanghai” joined the lexicon with “crimping” and “sailor thieves” in the 1850s, possibly because [Shanghai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai) was a common destination of the ships with abducted crews. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/80 "2023-01-08T03:26:39Z")
But then there’s Chinese Firedrills… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=5)