# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/81 "2023-01-08T04:05:37Z")
> [@Tzigone](#): > > Though I suppose some may debate whether an inheritor actually enslaved someone. Enslaving isn’t something you do once, it’s something you have to continually perpetrate, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/82 "2023-01-08T04:28:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > While we’re at it, I also have not heard anyone refer to “Indian summer” in awhile, either. Like maybe 10-15 years or so. I still hear that one. I’ve never been sure whether it derives from ‘we called it Indian summer because the Indians told us the weather does this around here’ or from the idea that it isn’t really summer, along the lines of the clearly pejorative “Indian giver”. As a child I naively assumed the first, but as an adult I developed a nasty suspicion that it was probably the latter; and between that suspicion and the possibility that others assume it’s pejorative, I try to avoid using it. > [@doreen](#): > > " Dutch apple pie" refers to something that has only one crust so it’s not really a pie. Is pumpkin pie not pie, then? It almost never has two crusts. > [@Telemark](#): > > I’ve often used “a Jewish 3:30” to mean any time before 5:00. And yes, I’m Jewish I’ve heard “Jewish time” used by and among Jews; not pejorative, just descriptive. I’d be dubious about hearing it from a non-Jew who wasn’t part of a mostly-Jewish family/community; especially about hearing it from somebody who thinks exact punctuality is The Only Way to Live. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/83 "2023-01-08T05:03:54Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Dutch apple pie" refers to something that has only one crust so it’s not really a pie. Is lemon meringue not really a pie? I always thought it was. But the idea that Dutch apple pie always has only one crust or that it means anything other than an apple pie that originated in The Netherlands is unfair to the Dutch, who deserve full credit for this delicious dessert. Dutch apple pie really _did_ originate there and dates back to the 16th century. In The Netherlands, Dutch apple pie has always been a very deep pie filled with apples and usually raisins. Originally, the Dutch mixed crumbled honey cookies into the apple filling. This may have eventually evolved into the crumb topping often associated with Dutch apple pie, though in The Netherlands, a lattice top crust is sometimes used. Early on, the Dutch also added cream to their apple pies. Here’s [an article](http://ladoucevie.eu/frenchified-hollandse-appeltaart-history-apple-pie/) that includes the history of my favorite dessert. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/84 "2023-01-08T05:07:23Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > But the idea that Dutch apple pie always has only one crust or that it means anything other than an apple pie that originated in The Netherlands is unfair to the Dutch, who deserve full credit for this delicious dessert. Dutch apple pie really _did_ originate there and dates back to the 16th century. Next you’ll be telling me that Spanish onions aren’t a reference to how they smell awful because they never bathe. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/85 "2023-01-08T05:11:47Z")
If we deprecate Dutch Oven, I guess we have no choice but to debowdlerize _Pass the Dutchie on the Left Hand Side_ ? Here’s the original, it seems: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yd5dYwurYQ4/maxresdefault.jpg "Pass the Kouchie") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd5dYwurYQ4) ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/86 "2023-01-08T05:21:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > While we’re at it, I also have not heard anyone refer to “Indian summer” in awhile, either. Like maybe 10-15 years or so. I wonder when the Chicago Tribune stopped publishing their annual “Indian Summer” column. 15 yrs. ago sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/87 "2023-01-08T09:59:50Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Blacklist/Whitelist is one that’s going away in a similar way in IT, often being replaced with Blocklist/Allowlist. That one makes more sense to me. When I worked in the NHS, over 20 years ago, a friend in HR at the hospital where I was based created a database of locum doctors that were considered unsuitable - mostly because of their poor English. She labelled it “Black List” and that was what got her in trouble. It had never occurred to her that calling it that was racist, but someone reported her because (as you might expect) most of the doctors on the list were dark-skinned. The heading was changed to “Do Not Employ” and the problem was resolved. My friend, however, felt that she was unjustly criticized and left shortly after. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/88 "2023-01-08T10:35:59Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > The heading was changed to “Do Not Employ” and the problem was resolved. My friend, however, felt that she was unjustly criticized and left shortly after. At a Dallas City Council meeting in 2008, Commissioner Mayfield referred to central collections, where tickets were sent but never processed, as a “black hole.” Commissioner Price replied “Your office is a white hole,” and Judge Jones went on to ask Mayfield to apologize for his insensitive racist comment because “You don’t sit around a table, where you have diversity, and refer to a black hole.” Mayfield refused on account of black hole being a “science term.” Sometimes I think the pressure to change language isn’t about respect or sensitivity, it’s about controlling the discourse. I find it hard to believe Jones and Price didn’t know what a black hole was, but by making it an issue, they could steer the conversation their direction. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/89 "2023-01-08T11:07:30Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > As an example, consider if these terms were in wide use: > > - **Swiss time** - Closely sticking to the appointed time. e.g. “This is an important plan. I need everyone to keep Swiss time so we get it all done” > - **Mexican time** - Loosely paying attention to defined times, e.g. “Don’t wait for Bob. He’s on Mexican time and always late” According to my former boss (Swiss), to be on time is to be 5 minutes early. To arrive at the appointed time would be late. I wish I was kidding. My current boss makes frequent references to Italian time, but it is self-deprecating, as he himself is Italian. For those who haven’t seen the term Indian summer use, come to Switzerland. Not only is there a company using the name, the local weather company uses it as well. > **[Indian summer - MeteoSwiss](https://www.meteoswiss.admin.ch/weather/weather-and-climate-from-a-to-z/indian-summer.html)** > > The welcome spate of good weather in autumn known as an Indian summer (or “Altweibersommer”) is a well-known occurrence in the weather calendar. It’s even used in Swiss German, if you’re planning a trip to the U.S. in the fall. [Link](https://www.knecht-reisen.ch/usa/indian-summer-boston/) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/90 "2023-01-08T13:22:25Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > At a Dallas City Council meeting in 2008, Commissioner Mayfield referred to central collections, where tickets were sent but never processed, as a “black hole.” Commissioner Price replied “Your office is a white hole,” and Judge Jones went on to ask Mayfield to apologize for his insensitive racist comment because “You don’t sit around a table, where you have diversity, and refer to a black hole.” Mayfield refused on account of black hole being a “science term.” Look, John Wiley Price is not exactly an example of how rational people approach issues. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/91 "2023-01-08T14:06:16Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@msmith537](#): > > > > I can see not using terms like “gypped”, “welched”, or “piker” as they originate from slights against particular groups of people. I’m not really clear why the sudden push to eliminate “master” and “slave” from the vocabulary. > > Being part Welsh, I have no issue with “welshed” myself, but I can see how others do. It is rather mild. _“Piker”_? Wall Street slang for someone who does something in a small or cheap way [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HVrfSspz1tA/hqdefault.jpg "Boiler room pikers") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVrfSspz1tA) I assumed it referred to Irish gypsies in the UK (“pikeys”) but it upon further research, it may actually refer to similar wandering groups who came to California through Pike County in the 1850s. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/92 "2023-01-08T15:07:15Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s like queer, I know some people identify as queer, but I’m sure as hell not going to call someone queer. I say “queer-identified” when relevant. That refers to people who call _themselves_ queer. But I think mostly I just use LGBTQ, which includes queer (or questioning, depending on who you ask.) I heard “Mexican time” in my Spanish classes and from Mexicans in Mexico. At the time, it was just a subtle nod to cultural differences about punctuality. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/93 "2023-01-08T15:12:31Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > According to my former boss (Swiss), to be on time is to be 5 minutes early. To arrive at the appointed time would be late. I wish I was kidding. ‘5 minutes early is 10 minutes late’ As far as ‘controlling the discourse’ is concerned, there’s good and bad with everything…I can roll my eyes at the Political Correctness of changing language and also acknowledge that we NEED to change at lease some of it…and it’s not for me to draw the line between what gets changed and what doesn’t. You also run into unexpected interpretation because you can’t control how someone else will respond to it…like taking the indian off Land O Lakes butter and having people say ‘once again, you removed the Indian and kept the land’. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/94 "2023-01-08T15:14:21Z")
I’ve been aware of the phrase “Mexican Time” for as long as I can remember, but I’ve always been uncertain if it’s supposed to refer to Mexicans (a bad thing) or the people visiting Mexico to relax (a good thing). As a Southern Californian who makes frequent visits to Mexico I have encountered little evidence that the former has any basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/95 "2023-01-08T15:26:07Z")
While I’m not sure I heard that specific term, the general idea is that many cultures have a more flexible interpretation of time, depending on context. America tends to be on the punctuality/time-obsessed side. Mexican culture, in my experience, tends to be on the time-flexible side of things. Googling about seems to reinforce that my impression is shared. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/96 "2023-01-08T15:32:05Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Mexican culture, in my experience, tends to be on the time-flexible side of things. Not in mine and I have a lot of exposure to that culture, especially on the customer and employer end of things. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/97 "2023-01-08T16:03:09Z")
I can’t think of an ethnic group or nationality that I haven’t heard used in that phrase. Except the Swiss, and never having been to Switzerland and not knowing any Swiss people I don’t know if that’s just because of their reputation for making timepieces or if they’re really just that punctual. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/98 "2023-01-08T16:10:17Z")
Ok, so we have different experiences, but it is worth noting that ideas of how time is handled do vary among cultures and context. It’s not a value judgment (especially as I think over adherence to a clock is less preferable to a looser ideas of time) but something that is and has been studied extensively. I don’t know where Mexico fits on the spectrum, but America is a bit more on the “tied to the clock” side of it, so we may have negative perceptions of cultures that don’t share this view. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/99 "2023-01-08T16:12:59Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s not a value judgment… but… we may have negative perceptions of cultures that don’t share this view. Right, so it _is_ invariably a value judgment in my experience, implying that people are lazy and disorganized. Perhaps even “Swiss time” is a value judgment that the Swiss are _too_ rigid. It’s the old joke that anyone driving 5 mph faster than me is a maniac, and anyone driving 5mph slower than me is an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/100 "2023-01-08T16:13:17Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Powwow is still just fine as a term for a North American Indian ceremony. > > Enough Native Americans find its usage for a regular work meeting or whatever problematic that I don’t use it that way because I don’t want to be a dick. I’ve never heard it used except for First Nations gatherings. Have attended one or two. What meaning does it have that you don’t use? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=6)