# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/101 "2023-01-08T16:20:07Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Right, so it _is_ invariably a value judgment in my experience Sorry—I was actually saying that I don’t mean it to be value judgment when I point out the differences, just an observation. But, yea, many others do perceive it or use it as a value judgment. But when I come across it as “Indian Standard Time,” from South Asians, I don’t hear it as a judgment, more as a comical observation, or more a “you know how it is…” ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/102 "2023-01-08T16:40:00Z")
This thread reminds me of my grandmother’s vernacular. She was a southern woman and a member of the WWII generation that birthed the baby boomers. Typical of her day, where racism was ubiquitous, she used to use “cotton pickin’” as an intensifier, akin to goddamn. “That cotton pickin’ car won’t start!” It wasn’t until I was a young adult that it dawned on me that this term was originally a reference to the work of Black slaves. (Her generation also used to refer to Brazil Nuts as nigger toes; it wasn’t meant to be especially pejorative, but instead descriptive (I.e. they thought that the nuts looked like the toes of dark skinned people). The fact that the epithet is so casually included just goes to show how entrenched the racism was in that society). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/103 "2023-01-08T16:40:07Z")
“Island time” and its various other worldwide analogs, from the discussion so far and from my own lived reality, falls in the _“ **we** can say it, but **you** can’t”_ category of cross-cultural language. (And may I say as someone who grew up in a different cultural-linguistic environment and have as an adult kept one foot in each, the whole matter of policing language for triggers/microagressions and implied structural [racism/sexism/historical grievance/ableism/violence/etc.] _ **does** _ some times strike me as curious or funny because (a) my different referents mean that specific words or usages don’t code the same to me on first or even second reading, and (b) I get to see _both_ sides arguing it is _just impossible_ that someone may in good faith continue thinking that way even after you explained.) ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/104 "2023-01-08T16:55:18Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > “Island time” and its various other worldwide analogs, from the discussion so far and from my own lived reality, falls in the _“ **we** can say it, but **you** can’t”_ category of cross-cultural language. In this respect consider New Mexico. People here call it land of mañana, and talk of _New_ Mexico time. But I think living here doesn’t give you a pass, you need to reflect on what “we” really means, and whether this commentary is really self-deprecating or directed toward Hispanic culture. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/105 "2023-01-08T16:56:03Z")
Oh, there are lots of ethnic groups/nationalities that I haven’t heard in that phrase - because I’ve only heard it about cultures that are somewhat relaxed about time, where everyone is expected to be a little late and you would never think about showing up at the time you were invited for. I never hear it about cultures where “on time is late and early is on time” , or “German time” ,“Swiss time” or " British time" but I suspect that a lot of that is because I live in the US and I might hear " German time" or “British time” if I lived in Italy. I am not sure that it’s always or usually meant to be exactly pejorative - most of the times I’ve hear it, it’s to clarify which time is being used for people who function in both cultures or for people who are in a different culture from the other people involved. Kind of like you might schedule a Zoom call at 2pm EST if people from different time zones are involved but if everyone is in NYC , you will leave off the EST. There is one variation ( which I have never actually heard ) that was absolutely meant as pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/106 "2023-01-08T17:09:51Z")
It could be regional. I don’t spend as much time in Mexico as you do, haven’t been there in fifteen years, but where I was, in a rural area in the state of Jalisco, it was a thing. It was a joke. “Oh, you Americans need to start operating on Mexican Time.” That sort of thing. The thing is, it’s only ethnocentrism about American culture that makes it a bad thing. “Mexican time” is a neutral concept unless you believe that the only proper way to get things done aligns with American cultural standards of punctuality. And it’s not just Mexico. Many South American countries are also presumed to be lax with time. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/107 "2023-01-08T17:12:49Z")
Don’t even get started on « Welsh time » and « German time » in my family! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/108 "2023-01-08T17:19:39Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > And it’s not just Mexico. Many South American countries are also presumed to be lax with time. Yeah, when my wife studied abroad in Ecuador for half a year, she and her fellow students got a lesson in “high-context” and “low-context” cultures, and how that also relates to time management/perception, with the former being more “polychronic” (which is more flexible, but that are a number of nuances that define the term) and the latter more “monochronic” (which is more focused on doing one thing at a time and values promptness in scheduling.) Monochronic cultures are generally North American and North European; polychronic are much of everyone else. The general study of this sort of thing is called chronemics: > **[Chronemics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronemics)** > > Chronemics is an anthropological, philosophical, and linguistic subdiscipline that describes how time is perceived, coded, and communicated across a given culture. It is one of several subcategories to emerge from the study of nonverbal communication. According to the Encyclopedia of Special Education, "Chronemics includes time orientation, understanding and organisation, the use of and reaction to time pressures, the innate and learned awareness of time, by physically wearing or not wearing a ... I seem to recall a rather contentious thread last year about punctuality where bits and pieces of this came into play in the discussion. It’s also worth noting that Western influence has shifted at least the business aspect of some polychronic cultures more towards a monochronic model. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/109 "2023-01-08T17:23:15Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > In this respect consider New Mexico. People here call it land of mañana, and talk of _New_ Mexico time. FWIW, in Virginia, a locality has ‘Northern Neck time’ and it’s some though to need to account for, doubly so if you’re one of those ‘come heres’ vs a ‘born here’ ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/110 "2023-01-08T17:30:17Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I seem to recall a rather contentious thread last year about punctuality where bits and pieces of this came into play in the discussion. Oh yes, I remember it. And regarding the “we” - as an islander myself, I suppose I am among those in the “oh WE can say it” group. Though that also, at the same time, should allow me, as opposed to some outsider, to be the one to say “but for _this_, guys, we really _should_ be on time, it really _would_ be better, y’know?” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/111 "2023-01-08T17:34:34Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Yeah, when my wife studied abroad in Ecuador for half a year, she and her fellow students got a lesson in “high-context” and “low-context” cultures, and how that also relates to time management/perception, with the former being more “polychronic” (which is more flexible, but that are a number of nuances that define the term) and the latter more “monochronic” (which is more focused on doing one thing at a time and values promptness in scheduling.) Monochronic cultures are generally North American and North European; polychronic are much of everyone else. The general study of this sort of thing is called chronemics Thank you for that link. Fascinating and informative ! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/112 "2023-01-08T17:39:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve never heard it used except for First Nations gatherings. Have attended one or two. What meaning does it have that you don’t use? Calling a regular work meeting a powwow. “Sales and Manufacturing need to have a powwow to figure out that user interface issue” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/113 "2023-01-08T17:45:25Z")
Also as a verb, like “we need to powwow about the Anderson account this week.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/114 "2023-01-08T17:50:08Z")
I don’t recall ever hearing it used in those senses. Powwow to me is a summer gathering of a First Nation, with dancing, drumming and get-togethers. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/115 "2023-01-08T17:51:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > “we need to powwow about the Anderson account this week.” You may also need to “bury the hatchet and smoke a peace pipe, depending on how dire the Anderson situation is. If Anderson’s lawyers are scalp hunters we may need to circle the wagons!” ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/116 "2023-01-08T17:52:50Z")
I’ve run into it used in @hajario’s sense and also I think in @pulykamell’s; though not recently. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/117 "2023-01-08T17:55:06Z")
From the wiki article cited by @pulykamell : > ; wearing or not wearing a watch This was a big one between me and Mom on one side, Dad and brother on the other side, when I was growing up. Mom and I wore watches now and then, if we felt like it. Dad and brother couldn’t imagine leaving the house without a watch. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/118 "2023-01-08T17:55:56Z")
But I’m just the low man on the totem pole. What can I do? What’s interesting to me is just how quietly “Indian summer” disappeared. I don’t recall any hubbub about it. I do recall at some point wondering whether that phrase was objectionable, but no conversation that I remember. It just drifted away. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/119 "2023-01-08T17:58:24Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > smoke a peace pipe Smoking a pipe is one way to start a meeting between First Nations and non-First Nations, with the pipe passed around the circle and each person taking a draw. I’ve never been in that situation, but I’ve had colleagues who have done it. One colleague who doesn’t smoke told me he took the pipe in both hands and bowed his head as a sign of respect before passing it along. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/120 "2023-01-08T17:59:33Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But I’m just the low man on the totem pole. What can I do? Which is technically wrong in any event. The lowest figure on the totem pole is the strongest supporter, who holds everyone else up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=7)