# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/121 "2023-01-08T18:00:53Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > “Cake walk” comes to mind. I just read a few different articles on it, and while I won’t use the term if it’s unpleasant for people, my impression is that “cake walks” have a complex origin that makes it difficult to tease out whether the term itself is racist. My takeaway: 1. I _think_ they were a tradition started by enslaved African Americans. 2. I _think_ they were intended to mock the movements and behavior of White people, and especially their enslavers. 3. I _think_ White enslavers tried to take control of these dances by judging them, and may not have picked up on the mockery. (this last piece I’m not convinced of: people in positions of absolute power sometimes demonstrate that power by laughing along with their mockery by the people they oppress). 4. Post-emancipation, Minstrel shows co-opted them. 5. Post-co-option, Ragtime reclaimed them in some ways. 6. Referring to something as a cakewalk references the smooth, gliding movements of the dance. While it’s certainly a bit of history that happened during slavery and is tied up in horrors, I’m not clear on how it would be racist itself. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/122 "2023-01-08T18:01:34Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > But I’m just the low man on the totem pole. What can I do? Be proud and flaunt it! 🙂 > **[The Debunker: Is It Bad to Be the "Low Man on the Totem Pole"?](https://www.woot.com/blog/post/the-debunker-is-it-bad-to-be-the-low-man-on-the-totem-pole)** > > When most Americans think about American Indians in November, it's probably as part of Thanksgiving pageantry: the Wampanoags who gave the hapless Pilgrims food during their first winter at Plymouth and taught them how to grow corn the following... > The expression “Low man on the totem pole” was popularized by radio comedian Fred Allen, referring to his friend, journalist H. Allen Smith. Allen used the phrase in the introduction of Smith’s 1941 book of self-deprecating essays about his humorous adventures > But Fred Allen should have been more careful with his research. According to Canadian naturalist Pat Kramer, an expert on First Nations culture, the lowest figures on the totem pole are often considered the _most_ prestigious. The designs on the bottom six feet of a totem pole are the ones that will be seen at eye level, after all, so they’re the figures that the carver usually decides not to farm out to apprentices. “The helpers do the high up parts and the master finishes the low end of the pole,” explains Kramer. “Higher-up figures are more representational and, if anything, slightly less important.” In other words, the world’s peons, nebbishes, schmucks, and go-fers should more accurately be described as the _high_ men on their respective totem poles. On edit: Ninjaed by @Northern_Piper ! But I got the cite! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/123 "2023-01-08T18:05:56Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > > [@pulykamell](#): > > > > But I’m just the low man on the totem pole. What can I do? > > Be proud and flaunt it! 🙂 Je might be expected to do something! Thanks for the cite! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/124 "2023-01-08T18:16:24Z")
Yay, I got a promotion! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/125 "2023-01-08T18:22:09Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > What’s interesting to me is just how quietly “Indian summer” disappeared. I don’t recall any hubbub about it. I do recall at some point wondering whether that phrase was objectionable, but no conversation that I remember. It just drifted away. Maybe it has something to do with global warmings? Long, hot autumns are now the norm, so there’s no need for a special name for them. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/126 "2023-01-08T18:22:40Z")
We definitely had a second summer here in Chicago, so it hasn’t gone away from this clime. If anything, they feel more common and longer now. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/127 "2023-01-08T18:22:51Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Look, John Wiley Price is not exactly an example of how rational people approach issues. If it was just Price I would have chalked it up to Price being Price. But a judge stepped in and asked for Mayfield’s apology during the meeting. > [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > As far as ‘controlling the discourse’ is concerned, there’s good and bad with everything…I can roll my eyes at the Political Correctness of changing language and also acknowledge that we NEED to change at lease some of it…and it’s not for me to draw the line between what gets changed and what doesn’t. That’s kind of where I am. Sometimes changing the words we use is something I see as good, but even if I think it’s silly to change, I recognize that it’s just the natural order of things. So long as you have a living language, it’s going to change, and fighting the change generally isn’t worth the effort. I did have a conversation several years back where someone asked me to use the words sex worker instead of prostitute. I elected to continue using the word prostitute because sex worker was too vague. A sex worker can be a phone sex operator, an exotic dancer, a model, etc., etc., but prostitution was what we were specifically talking about. To me, sex worker muddies the waters unless we’re talking about sex work in general. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’ve been aware of the phrase “Mexican Time” for as long as I can remember, but I’ve always been uncertain if it’s supposed to refer to Mexicans (a bad thing) or the people visiting Mexico to relax (a good thing). As a Southern Californian who makes frequent visits to Mexico I have encountered little evidence that the former has any basis in fact. In recent years I’ve learned that an expectation of being on time is a facet of our culture’s white supremacy and western bias. In Spanish class, we were taught that if we invited someone to an event and expected them arrive at the exact time we gave them, we were supposed to say something like, “At 8 PM, business time.” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/128 "2023-01-08T18:23:28Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > We definitely had a second summer here in Chicago, so it hasn’t gone away from this clime. If anything, they feel more common and longer now. Right - more common means less noteworthy. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/129 "2023-01-08T18:24:41Z")
On the other hand “more common” can also mean “more need to have a name for them” for when the temp drops to freezing and we get snow for about a week, and then it’s back to 60s or even 70s all of a sudden. I suppose we can now have a term for the cold spell that interrupts autumn instead. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/130 "2023-01-08T18:26:31Z")
Andrew Jackson winter? ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/131 "2023-01-08T18:27:31Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > In both IT and Automotive industries, Master and Slave are being deprecated (master and slave cylinders in cars, Master and Slave controllers, servers, etc in IT) This came up recently in a conversation with a friend at work. He commented that those terms ought to go away, and I replied that better still is the current trend of moving from using “Slave” to “Enslaved Person” when speaking of people, which then frees up the other terms for usage in IT and engineering. This is not without precedent: we speak of crippled software when the word “crippled” hasn’t been used for people in many decades. And I can’t imagine using anything other than “kill -9” to halt a rogue process on Linux. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/132 "2023-01-08T18:30:02Z")
N/M [Edit] ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/133 "2023-01-08T18:31:27Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > we speak of crippled software when the word “crippled” Yeah, I don’t like that one. “Feature-limited” is what I use. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/134 "2023-01-08T18:33:07Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > And I can’t imagine using anything other than “kill -9” to halt a rogue process on Linux. I remember that there was someone that modified the classic video game of DOOM, instead of typing the kill command you shot at the monsters to stop those rogue processes. [Searches] Well, that is still a thing after 22 years!: > **[Linux process monitoring with... DOOM. Seriously.](https://lunduke.substack.com/p/linux-process-monitoring-with-doom)** > > Shoot a monster. Kill a process. This is the UNIX-y way. . . . Excuse me while I shoot some [daemons](https://www.javatpoint.com/linux-daemon)… ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/135 "2023-01-08T18:46:25Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > You may also need to “bury the hatchet and smoke a peace pipe, depending on how dire the Anderson situation is. If Anderson’s lawyers are scalp hunters we may need to circle the wagons!” My sense is that powwow is especially problematic because it _trivializes_ what a real powwow is. Does the same really apply to “bury the hatchet”? I would hate to lose that, I think the imagery is wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/136 "2023-01-08T18:54:26Z")
I’d bet that all those “Dutch” as pejorative things were constructs of the 17th and 18th centuries when the English and Dutch were at war frequently, and just haven’t left the language yet, as it’s been a long time since the Dutch have been adversaries of the English, or for that matter, an underprivileged group. > [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > At the same time, things like Washington Redskins are being changed, and I wonder about Indian Motorcycles, because man, it’s ICONIC, and not in any way negative. They’re AWESOME bikes with an AWESOME brand. Yeah, not all usages are negative. I had to explain that the relationship between Florida State University and the Seminole people is a positive, collaborative, and respectful one, and that the tribe is officially on board with the whole thing. And that it’s fundamentally different as a result than the other examples like the Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, Washington Redskins, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/137 "2023-01-08T18:56:51Z")
I’m working on a made up world with multiple religions, each type of religion based on a color (Blue Faith for sky gods, etc.), and I intentionally decided that the Black Faith would not be evil. The actual evil religion is the Red Faith (for blood and fire), and the Black Faith is death, sleep, and dreams. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/138 "2023-01-08T18:57:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > If it was just Price I would have chalked it up to Price being Price. But a judge stepped in and asked for Mayfield’s apology during the meeting. Yeah, but John Wiley Price is basically a professional race-baiter, and a colossal asshole at the same time. And probably a crook too, but the prosecution botched that, so we may never really know. I wouldn’t use ANYTHING that guy says as any kind of indication about what is or isn’t racist or offensive. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/139 "2023-01-08T18:59:08Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Native-American related ones like powwow and Indian giver are already on the way out. Squaw Valley, the site of a former Winter Olympics, has changed its name to Palisades Tahoe. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/140 "2023-01-08T19:08:15Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I would write Latinx in a grant for example, despite feeling pretty strongly that it’s a niche elite academic term that many actual Latinos take offense to and very few even use. I’m friends with a woman on Facebook that I went to school with. She’s a book writer and historian of Hispanic descent, and she uses Latinx. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=8)