# The shifting tides of racist language **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 7, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841 "2023-01-07T16:08:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/141 "2023-01-08T19:12:36Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > I’m friends with a woman on Facebook that I went to school with. She’s a book writer and historian of Hispanic descent, and she uses Latinx. That goes to @Spice_Weasel 's point. I live in an area with a very large Hispanic population. The only people I have heard use Latinx are academics and activists (or both). ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/142 "2023-01-08T19:12:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > While it’s certainly a bit of history that happened during slavery and is tied up in horrors, I’m not clear on how it would be racist itself. It is fascinating. I don’t think it has to be racist itself to fall out of favor. I think we’ve reached a point in society in which anything related even in the most tangential way to slavery or racism offends some people to the degree that many people are going to avoid using that language. Now I’m wondering if “piece of cake” is tied up in there somewhere. But I don’t think many people think about it, if it is. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/143 "2023-01-08T19:27:12Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I’d bet that all those “Dutch” as pejorative things were constructs of the 17th and 18th centuries when the English and Dutch were at war frequently, and just haven’t left the language yet, as it’s been a long time since the Dutch have been adversaries of the English, or for that matter, an underprivileged group. They are, and I think they are still hanging around because people don’t know how they originated. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/144 "2023-01-08T19:29:50Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Now I’m wondering if “piece of cake” is tied up in there somewhere. But I don’t think many people think about it, if it is > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/piece--of--cake)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! Says it originated in the Royal Air Force in the 1930s. > **[a piece of cake](https://www.theidioms.com/piece-of-cake/)** > > a piece of cake meaning origin example sentence history Says its believed to be related to “cakewalk”. \< shrug \> ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/145 "2023-01-08T19:42:58Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Says it originated in the Royal Air Force in the 1930s. There’s your problem then… > **[Nigger (dog)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigger_(dog))** > > Nigger was a male black labrador retriever belonging to Wing Commander Guy Gibson of the Royal Air Force, and the mascot of No. 617 Squadron. Gibson owned the dog when he was previously a member of 106 Squadron. Nigger often accompanied Gibson on training flights and was a great favourite of the members of both 106 and 617 Squadrons. He was noted for his liking of beer, which he drank from his own bowl in the Officers' Mess. > Nigger died on 16 May 1943, the day of the famous "Dambusters" raid,... Famous (still) because the dog is featured quite prominently in the fabulous 1955 film about the Dambusters mission. It was still broadcast _as is_ on TV at least until the 1980s, and possibly still is, I think there has been some controversy about whether it should be cut. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/146 "2023-01-08T19:47:16Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > It is fascinating. I don’t think it has to be racist itself to fall out of favor. I think we’ve reached a point in society in which anything related even in the most tangential way to slavery or racism offends some people to the degree that many people are going to avoid using that language. I worry about this for the same reason that I don’t like referring to people as “slaves”: it can lead to thinking that enslavement was the _only_ part of a person’s life worth considering. Enslavement was horrific, AND the people who were enslaved managed to practice agency and live the best lives they could under their circumstances, full of creativity and love and planning and humor, as well as anger and sorrow and misery and everything else that makes the human experience. If we avoid any reference to any cultural tradition that arose during periods of enslavement, I worry that we are avoiding the full lives of the people who were enslaved. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/147 "2023-01-08T20:03:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I just read a few different articles on it, and while I won’t use the term if it’s unpleasant for people, my impression is that “cake walks” have a complex origin that makes it difficult to tease out whether the term itself is racist. I concur about “cake walks”. But our term " Wow, that job was a real cake walk", seems to originate from a carnival game, more or less Musical chairs, which was a very easy game to play. We also maybe get “takes the cake” from that. The origin of the term, as used for a task that was easy, is uncertain and shrouded in folk entomology, etc. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Now I’m wondering if “piece of cake” is tied up in there somewhere. But I don’t think many people think about it, if it is. Seems to be possibly related to the game. > [@Riemann](#): > > Does the same really apply to “bury the hatchet”? I would hate to lose that, I think the imagery is wonderful. Yeah, "bury the hatchet and smoke a peace pipe"are not so bad. They honor a Native tradition, not trivialize it. Hell, many of our states have Native American words are names, do we get rid of those too? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/148 "2023-01-08T20:15:24Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > I’ve been aware of the phrase “Mexican Time” for as long as I can remember, but I’ve always been uncertain if it’s supposed to refer to Mexicans (a bad thing) or the people visiting Mexico to relax (a good thing). As a Southern Californian who makes frequent visits to Mexico I have encountered little evidence that the former has any basis in fact. From what I’ve seen from my West Coast friends who operate on “LA time”, that isn’t surprising. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/149 "2023-01-08T20:27:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, "bury the hatchet and smoke a peace pipe"are not so bad. They honor a Native tradition, not trivialize it. Hell, many of our states have Native American words are names, do we get rid of those too? I find it interesting that American military helicopters are often named after Native American tribes, people, or terms ( Bell H-13 Sioux, UH-1 Iroquois (AKA “Huey”), CH-47 Chinook, OH-58 Kiowa, OH-58D Kiowa Warrior, AH-56 Cheyenne, UH-60A Black Hawk, AH-64 Apache, etc) and frequently organized into “air cavalry” units. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/150 "2023-01-08T20:44:33Z")
The Army decided as a policy to give all their helo models names taken from US Indian tribes. This dates from the beginning of helo aviation immediately after WWII and continues to the present day. I don’t know if that will continue for the next helo- or helo-like air machines the Army is now busy doing R&D & contracting for. I had not until now noticed the irony of them often being assigned to air cavalry units. But once seen, it cannot be unseen. I suspect the original motivation was to honor the tribes, much like they honored the Navajo code talkers. Nowadays that notion sounds pretty tin-eared. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/151 "2023-01-08T20:52:17Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I suspect the original motivation was to honor the tribes, much like they honored the Navajo code talkers. Nowadays that notion sounds pretty tin-eared. I had a quick look to try to find out if anyone had expressed any ill feeling over this, and so far found instead the following, albeit from an army puff piece: > in 2012, Lakota elders bestowed ritualistic blessings on two South Dakota Army National Guard UH-72A Lakotas > **[Army Aircraft Honor Native Americans](https://www.vfw.org/media-and-events/latest-releases/archives/2021/11/army-aircraft-honor-native-americans)** > > Vietnam veterans most likely have vivid memories of the Army’s UH-1H Iroquois “Huey” helicopters. The most commonly used helicopter in the Vietnam War, the Huey was used for troop insertions and extractions as well as medical evacuations off the... And the article mentions that the Sioux (the original eponym) famously _beat_ the 7th Cav at Little Bighorn, so perhaps any irony about the helos being in the Air Cav works both ways. I wonder if there are any current Native American pilots? An Apache flying an Apache would be awesome. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/152 "2023-01-08T21:01:53Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The Army decided as a policy to give all their helo models names taken from US Indian tribes. This dates from the beginning of helo aviation immediately after WWII and continues to the present day. I don’t know if that will continue for the next helo- or helo-like air machines the Army is now busy doing R&D & contracting for. > > I had not until now noticed the irony of them often being assigned to air cavalry units. But once seen, it cannot be unseen. > > I suspect the original motivation was to honor the tribes, much like they honored the Navajo code talkers. Nowadays that notion sounds pretty tin-eared. Back in Vietnam, when the Army started experimenting with massed helicopter assaults as a viable tactic, they converted a number of former horse cavalry units to air cavalry. One of the most famous being Custer’s 7th Cavalry Regiment which participated in the battle of Ia Drang and portrayed in the film We Were Soldiers. What I also find interesting (if also perhaps a bit tin-eared) is how many of these units maintain some of the uniform, markings, and traditions from the earlier Indian Wars era cavalry units. IOW, Col Kilgore prancing around the battlefield in Apocalypses Now wearing an olde timey cavalry officers hat and scarf wasn’t a weird affectation. Apparently it was standard issue circa Vietnam War. I guess it’s similar to how some units also continued to maintain Confederate symbiology until relatively recently. On the one hand it probably comes from a place of maintaining traditions for some disagreement we fought over 150 years ago. Unfortunately it sort of glosses over what that disagreement was actually about. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/153 "2023-01-08T21:12:39Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Maybe it has something to do with global warmings? Long, hot autumns are now the norm, so there’s no need for a special name for them I don’t think so, around here. Around here the term means a spell of warm weather that occurs after the first frost. The first frost runs later than it used to, and the warm spell tends to be warmer, but otherwise the pattern still occurs, in most but not all years as it did before; and it affects what people can do outside, so it’s still useful to have a term for it. Maybe that’s why I sometimes still do hear it around here, though. I don’t know what the opinion of the Haudenosaunee is of its use. Maybe I should try to find out. > [@minor7flat5](#): > > the current trend of moving from using “Slave” to “Enslaved Person” when speaking of people, which then frees up the other terms for usage in IT and engineering. I don’t think it does. Maybe it will in a couple of hundred years – though there are still people being enslaved right now. But I think the words are too close, and the wound still too raw, and the people affected in their fairly recent family history too many. And also, the “master/slave” terminology gets used, or used to get used, for all sorts of things; not just software. I think the “crippled software” use may be for that field, and not commonly run into outside it. I’ve never heard somebody refer to a crippled car part, or tractor part, or hand tool, or garden hose valve. And outside this board I don’t all that often hear people talk about software, except occasionally in the sense of complaining that it’s not working right, and they use laymen’s terms to do so; I don’t think I’ve heard anybody say “crippled”. (I will now wait for multiple people to tell me they hear it all the time in multiple contexts; or used to until recently.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/154 "2023-01-08T21:26:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I guess it’s similar to how some units also continued to maintain Confederate symbiology until relatively recently. On the one hand it probably comes from a place of maintaining traditions for some disagreement we fought over 150 years ago. Unfortunately it sort of glosses over what that disagreement was actually about. Insightful and very well said. I suppose it’s a good thing that our enemies don’t stay enemies forever. The Native American Indians, the Confederate states, the Germans, the Vietnamese; all those are now on our friend list, at least officially. I imagine eventually we’ll get the Russians and the Chinese on the friend list too, but only after the prerequisite war has been fought. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/155 "2023-01-08T21:33:59Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I imagine eventually we’ll get the Russians… on the friend list too, but only after the prerequisite war has been fought. The second U.S. civil war, you mean?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/156 "2023-01-08T21:40:07Z")
Once it’s over we’ll probably determine they were the cause of that war, but I doubt they’ll get the friend credit for it afterwards. Gotta have [whoever] as the direct straight-up enemy for them to get friend credit in the next episode. ---
**Author:** ![minor7flat5](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/minor7flat5/32/258_2.png) [@minor7flat5](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minor7flat5)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/157 "2023-01-08T21:46:11Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > But I think the words are too close, and the wound still too raw, and the people affected in their fairly recent family history too many. I may not necessarily feel the same way about these terms, but I totally appreciate that you put this down in words like this so that many people (including myself) will think twice before using words that have widely varying degrees of impact between individuals. Next time I am using these as technical terminology, I will likely make an effort to avoid “master/slave”. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/158 "2023-01-08T21:52:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > On the one hand it probably comes from a place of maintaining traditions for some disagreement we fought over 150 years ago. It’s more of a idea of maintaining continuity, tradition, and martial pride. It gets particularly weird for units that are state militia (i.e. National Guard) or Indian War units (mostly Cavalry units), because those units in many cases have unbroken continuity from before and after those particular battles. I kind of think the idea is less what side they fought on, but rather did the unit itself fight well, and uphold the honor of the unit. In other words, it’s more important for military purposes that the 1st Texas Regiment fought hard and didn’t retreat at the Alamo, Chickamauga, Gettysburg, Antietam, Naples, San Pietro Infine, and in Iraq, than it is whether they were fighting Mexico, the Federal government, Nazi Germany or insurgents in Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/159 "2023-01-08T22:01:12Z")
> [@thorny\_locust](#): > > > [@Telemark](#): > > > > I’ve often used “a Jewish 3:30” to mean any time before 5:00. And yes, I’m Jewish > > I’ve heard “Jewish time” used by and among Jews; not pejorative, just descriptive. I’d be dubious about hearing it from a non-Jew who wasn’t part of a mostly-Jewish family/community; especially about hearing it from somebody who thinks exact punctuality is The Only Way to Live. Same thing with “Indian Standard Time.” Punctuality is not a common feature of society in India. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841/160 "2023-01-08T22:04:32Z")
There’s also the LJB, or Long Jewish Goodbye, that can take more than an hour. Contrast that to an Irish goodbye, which is leaving without anyone knowing you’ve left. I honestly don’t know if either of them are racist, or even demeaning, but they exist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-shifting-tides-of-racist-language/977841.md?page=9)