# The Silence of the Mods: manhattan and the Loyalty Day thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 4, 2004, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386 "2004-05-04T01:04:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/21 "2004-05-04T06:02:45Z")
Manhattan, i used to respect you. But that post convinced me that you are just another ungracoius, nasty git. And hey, fuck you too Shodan. december almost never acknowledged his own deceptions, but continued to sidestep the complete falsities of many of his OPs just to keep his trolling threads alive. RTFirefly admitted his mistakes. Fuck you for even comparing him to december. You should have more sense than that. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/22 "2004-05-04T07:17:12Z")
Having **manhattan** and **Shodan** chastize others for forum etiquette is like having John Travolta diss Steven Spielberg. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/23 "2004-05-04T08:24:30Z")
Well, yeah. Spielberg can’t dance for shit. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/24 "2004-05-04T12:13:48Z")
Frankly, I don’t see how the OP in that thread even poses a debate. What was intended by it anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/25 "2004-05-04T12:14:36Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > And hey, fuck you too Shodan. december almost never acknowledged his own deceptions, but continued to sidestep the complete falsities of many of his OPs just to keep his trolling threads alive. RTFirefly admitted his mistakes. Fuck you for even comparing him to december. You should have more sense than that. Fuck you right back, but with no lubrication and not even a reach-around. I already posted (in another thread) a half-dozen or so places where **december** acknowledged the good points others were making. The fact that you ignore reality even when having your nose rubbed in it means only that you lack the integrity or the intelligence to recognize when you are being a fucking tool. **RT** is doing exactly what **december** was accused of - posting deceptive threads and misrepresenting his cites. **december** didn’t go whining to the mods when he got caught doing it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/26 "2004-05-04T12:18:07Z")
But that’s not entirely related to the topic of _this_ thread. Here, the confusion is about someone apparently doing a Bad Thing that would normally receive a warning of some sort. This consequence doesn’t appear to have happened here, although it’s theoretically possible that it’s happened behind the proverbial closed doors. Isn’t that the question here? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/27 "2004-05-04T12:34:52Z")
It may be off topic, but RTF has opened himself up for criticism of his lousy, unresearched OP in GD. You want to debate with the big boys (and I generally do not) you at a minimum need to read your own cite! Saying “oops, I didn’t see that part of the article I cited” doesn’t cut it, and neither does posting an OP without doing a single second of research into the matter. His post belonged in the Pit, not GD and he deserves criticism for it. He should also spend more than just the time to scan the article before deciding to write an outraged OP about it. OTOH, Manny should have opened his own Pit thread if he was going to call RTF a liar and a troll. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/28 "2004-05-04T12:37:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **december** didn’t go whining to the mods when he got caught doing it. Your alternate universe (you know, the one where it revolves around Clinton’s knob) doesn’t accord with reality. [For post-modern posters, truth depends on who said it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=206207). Don’t bother with the technicality that the stupid asshole was whining _about_ the mods rather than _to_ the mods. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/29 "2004-05-04T12:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > It isn’t like they didn’t know about it; I’ve exchanged correspondence with two of the three GD mods about Manny’s posts in this thread In which BOTH MEBuckner and I discussed with you the “liar” bit, and why we’ve allowed it before. And then later I replied to your response to me regarding the rest of manny’s post. So: you’ve had THREE emails now from TWO mods regarding the rules of GD, ANOTHER mod has posted in the thread, the post you linked to happened YESTERDAY and you have to start a pit thread about the “silence of the mods” regarding “rules violations in GD”? It is a good thing we don’t actually have lives or something, we might not have responded to your first reported post that very night, it being a Saturday and all. Except wait, we did. And then it took us another 12 hours on Sunday to repond to your next email! And then, ooh, 17 hours (well, you did email at 5 am) to respond to your next. Even my mother doesn’t get turnaround times like that on emails, particularly not ones that require 8 paragraphs of explanation on my part including links to examples. To recap, briefly: “Liar” has always been allowed. Abuse of it MAY get a warning or banning, but I don’t recall us having done so. Let’s say a poster starts making wild claims about demonstrated psychic behavior, or says they’re privy to government secrets that support whatever side they’re for, or repeat creationist arguments fifty times after being told why they’re wrong and just say “oops, I forgot” when reminded that such things are not true. You can’t prove they didn’t levitate their bologna sandwich, or that they don’t have access to high-level secrets and blab them on message boards, or that they didn’t really forget the fifty times they were already told why the 2nd law of thermodynamics doesn’t disprove evolution. To not even be able to say “I don’t think you really are a member of black ops CIA” seems like it would do more to stifle honest debate than promote it. So that is why we allow “liar”. “This post is trolling”; that refers to the post, not the poster. We have allowed this before. We are discussing whether we should not, but at the time manny posted it was allowable. “You should be banned”: We have allowed people to be called “decemberish” or that they post like december, which carries an implication of “you should be banned like he was”. Manny did state it outright though. People have done this before without getting warned for junior modding, but only, I recall, in the Pit or GD threads that got locked. Borderline. We did not immediately leap in to warn manny because as noted above, most of the post is acceptable, if not what I like to see, and we have had offline conversations with manny. HOWEVER, just because each individual bit or the post is technically within the rules does not mean you can’t be warned or banned for it. Remember Collounsbury? The overall tone of manhattan’s post is very inflammatory, and is as close to the edge of the rules as possible. I am surprised since manny was painfully polite for a while there, and I was glad to see it. Manny? [Moderator Hat ON] I _do_ expect you to behave more calmly in GD than your recent post. Posts like that _will_ not become a habit. You have demostrated that you are perfectly capable of acting more calmly, so I am sure you can do this if you try. [Moderator Hat OFF] Both of you, I don’t see why you can’t control your tempers a bit better with each other. If you promise to put each other on ignore and not even hint about the other again, I swear I will mail each of you a crisp one dollar bill. > [@](#): > > Don’t commit any board rule violations, no matter how technical or petty and have a different political philosophy than the mods. And make sure they disagree with whomever you’re targetting as well. Look, everyone, apparently we GD mods hate liberals! Except for the people who think we hate conservatives. I wish you guys would make up your mind which political philosophy we’re currently letting influence our moderating decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/30 "2004-05-04T12:47:44Z")
[Monty Python Scotsman] I’ll put anyone **Gaudere** says on IGNORE for a pound. [/Monty Python Scotsman] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/31 "2004-05-04T12:59:17Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Your alternate universe (you know, the one where it revolves around Clinton’s knob) doesn’t accord with reality. > > [For post-modern posters, truth depends on who said it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=206207). > > Don’t bother with the technicality that the stupid asshole was whining _about_ the mods rather than _to_ the mods. How about the technicality that **december** ’s OP makes no mention of the mods at all? > [@december](#): > > My GD thread demonstrated that some posters will criticize the words of a Republican, but it’s OK with them when a Democrat says the same thing. Were you always this stupid, or did you have to work at it? And while we are at it - I wouldn’t be so quick to defend somebody whose own cite showed them to be less than honest. I seem to remember another Doper who attempted a little racist [lie about Bush,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4779060&highlight=brown-skinned#post4779060) and got caught rather badly. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/32 "2004-05-04T13:08:20Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > If you promise to put each other on ignore and not even hint about the other again, I swear I will mail each of you a crisp one dollar bill. Man, I was all getting ready to warn this **Gaudere** person about how the mods of this board frown on advocating illegal activity like sending cash through the mail. But I did a little research before junior-modding, and it turns out to be perfectly legal. You got lucky this time, **Gaudere**. Daniel 😉 ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/33 "2004-05-04T13:12:40Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > “This post is trolling”; that refers to the post, not the poster. We have allowed this before. We are discussing whether we should not, but at the time manny posted it was allowable. > > “You should be banned”: We have allowed people to be called “decemberish” or that they post like december, which carries an implication of “you should be banned like he was”. Manny did state it outright though. People have done this before without getting warned for junior modding, but only, I recall, in the Pit or GD threads that got locked. Borderline. This is a joke, right? We’ve been allowed to say a POST is trolling, but not the poster? Did the post write itself? That’s bullshit, **Gaudere**. Either both are allowed, or both aren’t. And if you’ve said in the past that you’ve allowed people to say a _post_ is trolling, I’d love to see that post. Talk about splitting hairs. Talk about a weaselly way to run things. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/34 "2004-05-04T13:12:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How about the technicality that **december** ’s OP makes no mention of the mods at all? > > Were you always this stupid, or did you have to work at it? Slow down there, cowboy. You’re probably perfectly aware that **december** started that thread straight after being shut down by a mod in [another thead](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=205995): > [@Gaudere](#): > > [Moderator Hat ON] > > Hm. Deliberately lying to the GDer’s about the source of a quote is a pretty jerky thing to do. I consider it downright unethical in a debate forum, and I’m usually a pretty strong proponent of “let people post whatever they like, the truth will out”. I am locking this thread and it will stay locked until I get an email from december that convinces me to reopen it. > > [Moderator Hat OFF] > [@Shodan](#): > > And while we are at it - I wouldn’t be so quick to defend somebody whose own cite showed them to be less than honest. I seem to remember another Doper who attempted a little racist [lie about Bush,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4779060&highlight=brown-skinned#post4779060) and got caught rather badly. Um, I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. **athelas** is a moron who can’t sensibly string two sentences together. And it was actually _you_ that I was calling a racist asshole, not Bush. Sorry if that escaped you in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![htns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@htns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/htns)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/35 "2004-05-04T13:14:44Z")
Got a problem with a poster? Ignore them. Put them on your Ignore list and get on with your life. Pit them if you must, then ignore them. I only did that once, and the person I ignored turned out to be a Stormfront toadie. (Let the record show that I called the sockie as a sockie before the mods saw it, goodie for me ;)) Said sockie was quickly banned anyway. My philosophy is that trolls, Nazis and other scum will get banned soon enough. Above all else, I recommend that you keep one thing in mind: **No message board in the history of the internet has been significant enough to warrant disrupting your peace of mind.** If I didn’t follow that rule, I’d have been banned by now. Repeating that rule over and over to myself has enabled me to keep my cool and discuss things rationally, as well as given me the ability to apologize should I totally drop the ball. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/36 "2004-05-04T13:19:57Z")
> [@Gaudere](#): > > I wish you guys would make up your mind which political philosophy we’re currently letting influence our moderating decisions. The viewpoints of Neo-Stoicist Asharites are conspicuously missing from Great Debates. Would you like to explain why? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/37 "2004-05-04T13:20:34Z")
> [@](#): > > This is a joke, right? We’ve been allowed to say a POST is trolling, but not the poster? Did the post write itself? That’s bullshit, Gaudere. Either both are allowed, or both aren’t. We’ve always had a policy where you could say, for example, “that is a stupid argument” but not “you are stupid.” So it seemed similar to allow “this post is trolling” or “this post is just to rile people up, you don’t believe it” but not “you are a troll.” Like I said, we may disallow it but we haven’t before. Last time I warned manny it was for saying DNFTT and he said it referred to the post, I said it referred to the poster; we would hardly have argued over that if both were equally unacceptable at the time. ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/38 "2004-05-04T15:17:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _Gaudere_ > I wish you guys would make up your mind which political philosophy we’re currently letting influence our moderating decisions. AFAIAC, the issue is **mate’s rates** , not politics. I agree with **elucidator** ’s post (yesterday 09:02 PM). [Last time](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=217245) I said > [@](#): > > Manny’s a right-winger, but over a very long period of time I’ve observed him putting the fight against ignorance first and making this place what it is (a place where the voice of reason does not have the stage to itself, but is always audible). **In this instance I’m disappointed.** > > **Those who say that manhattan is getting a soft ride have short memories.** It takes a lot to get banned here if you’re a well-established poster. [emphasis added] I’m somewhat less certain of the second bolded bit now. As for the first bolded bit, my expectations of **manhattan** are gone. Years of gratitude and admiration have been well and truly pissed away. It would have been easy (and perfectly justified) to start a Pit thread (or apologise to the Board on reflection). Did you not care or did you just think that you could fly with the weasel? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/39 "2004-05-04T15:30:04Z")
> [@Desmostylus](#): > > Slow down there, cowboy. You’re probably perfectly aware that **december** started that thread straight after being shut down by a mod in [another thead](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=205995): And therefore, yet again, you linked to a thread that does not demonstrate your point. > [@december](#): > > This thread proves that some posters are looking to find fault with George Bush (and me), even if Bill and Hillary Clinton as saying the same things as we are You claimed **december** was complaining either about, or to, the mods. Which he did not do. And therefore, you are doing exactly what you claim **december** was doing. Do you honestly think that repeating a lie makes it any better? > [@Desmostylus](#): > > And it was actually _you_ that I was calling a racist asshole, not Bush. Sorry if that escaped you in that thread. Again, a blatant and obvious untruth. You attributed the “brown-skinned” remark to Bush, as an example of how the Right is rejoicing over the suffering of brown-skinned people. Which was a direct and proven lie - Bush’s press conference did not contain any remarks that could even remotely be interpreted as meaning anything of the sort. You were not calling me a racist asshole, you were **being** a racist asshole. > [@Desmostylus](#): > > Um, I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. On the off chance, then, that something will penetrate your deliberate stupidity, I will make it clear. You are committing acts that you condemn in **december** , because you are a poster completely lacking in any shred of honesty or intellectual integrity. Your racist slander against your betters and the bald-faced hypocrisy with which you attempt to carry it off are a discredit to the SDMB, and to the honest liberals whose cause you disgrace. No regards this time. Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386/40 "2004-05-04T15:40:28Z")
Is anyone else amused by **UncleBeer** even thinking he should participate in a discussion about the behavior of ex-mods? **Gaudere** , you do have to acknowledge that a lot of warnings have been given out for much less infantile behavior than \*\*manhattan \*\* has shown in the thread in question. If you have rules, you have to enforce them if you want to be seen as fair, not waffle about what you might have considered acceptable at what point in time, and telling us that that policy may or may not change again depending on your whim - which is frankly what you’ve done here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-silence-of-the-mods-manhattan-and-the-loyalty-day-thread/243386.md?page=3)