# The Simpsons poke the Politically Incorrect Bear - The Problem with Apu **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091 "2018-04-09T17:17:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/181 "2018-04-12T01:53:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You want me to cite episodes from the early days in which they mocked the uproar over them? …by claiming that “\*\*as the show always had \*\*when criticized for being inappropriate or offensive” then yes I would expect you would be able to cite plenty of examples of them doing exactly this. So they responded “like this” once, in 1992. And that response was clearly “punching up” unlike their current response, which was clearly “punching down.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/182 "2018-04-12T01:55:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you disagree that, historically, the interests of white male audiences have been given higher priority than other groups? > > Look, you can present this as a complaint about white people if it makes you feel as aggrieved as all those Indian-Americans mocked by strangers on the street. I won’t stand in your way. But you can’t see how pathetic it is to complain about a “complaint” that is undeniably true? Forget about race for sec. TV caters to those who spend the most money; it’s all about advertisers. Up until recently, which demographic group had a lock on that? It wasn’t people like me, I assure you. I’m sorry, I’m not a white male activist. I feel no need to be aggrieved by anything. While I haven’t done a lot with it, I am sure my remaining white privilege will not drain out before I die. So Im good. That said, I can still notice and be put off when obviously racially charged comments are completely denied as racially charged comments. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/183 "2018-04-12T01:56:30Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Right. If a person said that “we finally stopped listening to all that Maorian complaining,” you wouldn’t bat an eye. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok. I’m the one disconnected. **Please carry on without me**. …I was carrying on without you. Do you no longer want us to carry on without you? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/184 "2018-04-12T02:22:07Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I was carrying on without you. Do you no longer want us to carry on without you? Why do you keep asking for my permission to post? It’s rather odd. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/185 "2018-04-12T02:30:26Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Why do you keep asking for my permission to post? It’s rather odd. …I wasn’t asking your permission. I agreed with your post where you said you were the one who was “disconnected.” You responded with a bizarre non-sequitur about “finally stopped listening to all that Maorian complaining” (and “Maorian” is really a word that is not in common usage here). So it appears you don’t want me to “carry on” without you. Which is it? Because if you are going to respond to my posts it would be helpful if your response actually related to something I actually said. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/186 "2018-04-12T02:31:39Z")
Ok ok, I hereby give you permission to post whatever you want. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/187 "2018-04-12T02:40:13Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Ok ok, I hereby give you permission to post whatever you want. Sheesh. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > … **I wasn’t asking your permission.** > > I agreed with your post where you said you were the one who was “disconnected.” You responded with a bizarre non-sequitur about “finally stopped listening to all that Maorian complaining” (and “Maorian” is really a word that is not in common usage here). So it appears you don’t want me to “carry on” without you. Which is it? **Because if you are going to respond to my posts it would be helpful if your response actually related to something I actually said.** …sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/188 "2018-04-12T06:36:21Z")
You folks do remember Matt Matt Groening. Do you really think the guy who wrote _Life in Hell_ gives a rats ass about political correctness? Groening is the king of satire and irony. There’s no prejudice in his comedy. He rips apart everybody and everything. There’s no sacred cow he won’t gore. I hope the SJWs stir Groening up enough to revive _Life in Hell_. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/189 "2018-04-12T09:56:01Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That said, I can still notice and be put off when obviously racially charged comments are completely denied as racially charged comments. What is racially charged? It seems reasonable to state as fact that, until quite recently, the predominant POV presented in the previously-narrow media was White Male. I’m a white guy, I lived through it, too - that’s not a racist thing to say, it simply was how it was. White guys were the heroes; women were their objects of desire; other ethnic groups were portrayed relative to the white male. That of course is a broad generality, but you see this, yes? The fact that this has changed a bit more, a bit faster recently is what is changing this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/190 "2018-04-12T11:19:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You want me to cite episodes from the early days in which they mocked the uproar over them? The first one that comes to mind for me is [the episode about Brazil](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2002/apr/09/broadcasting.internationalnews), where in a later episode they make a jab about the monkey problem in Brazil being worse than ever. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/191 "2018-04-12T11:29:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Who has made complaints specifically about white men? I’m not going to go back and read all the posts in this thread, but to say it’s filled with such complaints is crazy when most of the posts actually support Groening et al. > > If there are complaints about middle aged white men in this thread, it wouldn’t surprise me if they mostly came from…other middle aged white men. That is not really my problem to address or apologize. Does it offend you to be called a black woman? I’m serious, how is that in any way derogatory? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/192 "2018-04-12T11:52:51Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Does it offend you to be called a black woman? I’m serious, how is that in any way derogatory? I haven’t even acknowledged being called a black woman in this thread, let alone expressed problem with it, so this comment looks like bait. Someone else can take it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/193 "2018-04-12T12:32:18Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > … Tell me, is there any non-conciliatory way the show could have responded that would not be also classified as “punching down”? As she suggests, were the only options silence or mea culpas? Personally I’d be offended if someone called defending themselves from _my_ criticism as “punching down.” The criticism I have of the in-show explicit response is that the breaking the wall sort of response just seems not very funny or clever. > [@WordMan](#): > > What is racially charged? It seems reasonable to state as fact that, until quite recently, the predominant POV presented in the previously-narrow media was White Male. I’m a white guy, I lived through it, too - that’s not a racist thing to say, it simply was how it was. White guys were the heroes; women were their objects of desire; other ethnic groups were portrayed relative to the white male. > > That of course is a broad generality, but you see this, yes? > > The fact that this has changed a bit more, a bit faster recently is what is changing this conversation. What this post really is noting though is that the problem was not The Simpsons and Apu but the nature of media and our broad society almost three decades ago and really up until the last several years. The actual point made with the in-show response is IMHO completely valid. Were there _any_ East Asian characters as regulars on any popular show in 1989 when the show began? For a long time this show was it. Robust immigration of Indians was a fairly new thing then, and of course they had accents. Many _did_ live the immigrant story of starting small businesses, like convenience stores. [The context](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/indian-immigrants-united-states): > [@](#): > > In 1960, just 12,000 Indian immigrants lived in the United States, representing less than 0.5 percent of the 9.7 million overall immigrant population. Migration from India swelled between 1965 and 1990 as a series of legislative changes removed national-origin quotas … Today, the majority of Indian immigrants are young and highly educated, and have strong English skills. Many work in science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields. From 1980 to 2010, the population grew more than eleven-fold, roughly doubling every decade … Truth is that The Simpsons was ahead of the curve having a regular character of who was one of these Indian immigrants as a regular character as that wave was in progress and Apu was not treated as a cardboard stereotype. If anything was made fun of it was the ignorance of those around him about his culture. Anti-immigrant laws and their impact on real people like Apu was dealt with in show long before Trump was a real political entity. The biases that immigrants like Apu dealt with was a recurring theme. The reason those who wanted to bully Indian classmates went with Apu was simply that they had no other mass media material to work with. For many years the only mainstream regular character in the media was Apu, who again, was treated as a full and complex character with ignorant behavior _to_ him being the subject of mocking rather than he was and his culture not treated derisively. (In comparison many other parts of American culture and subculture has been.) For those many years the show was part of the solution to what the problem was, not the problem. The premise of the show though, like many cartoons, includes the characters, and in particular Apu, being pretty much stuck in time. Nearly 30 years later were are on a next generation of Indian Americans in our society and immigrant Indians are more commonly working in higher SES technical and professional jobs. Now there are multiple shows with more diverse East and South Asian characters. The show did acknowledge that in 2016 and had a show that actually addressed the issues of how some characters were now dated, in “[Much Apu About Something](https://tv.avclub.com/a-visitor-takes-a-long-look-at-apu-on-a-funny-thoughtf-1798186427)” The resolution though was that as dated as he is the show is not going to jettison Apu. The most recent in-show response might not have been so clever or funny but it is not punching down at all. The show and Apu _was_ more a step towards working on what the problem was than the problem itself. _Now_ the character is a bit dated but Apu cannot age out, cannot in universe change too much, and killing him off because he is dated is not what the writers want to do. There are other sources now for diverse mass media images of that American sub-culture. That said man have I learned that the sound made when a cow is being had is “sheesh”. Ignorance reduced! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/194 "2018-04-12T12:49:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Were there _any_ East Asian characters as regulars on any popular show in 1989 when the show began? [Yes](https://www.saada.org/tides/interview/joher-coleman). (Edited to give better link.) ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/195 "2018-04-12T12:51:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I haven’t even acknowledged being called a black woman in this thread, let alone expressed problem with it, so this comment looks like bait. > Someone else can take it. Yeah, I was trying to figure out what the point was. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/196 "2018-04-12T13:04:09Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > > [@DSeid](#): > > > > Were there _any_ East Asian characters as regulars on any popular show in 1989 when the show began?’ > > [Yes](https://www.saada.org/tides/interview/joher-coleman). > > (Edited to give better link.) I don’t understand why you replied to a question about the presence of East Asian characters on TV in 1989 by linking to an article about someone who portrayed a South Asian character. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/197 "2018-04-12T13:04:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The most recent in-show response might not have been so clever or funny but it is not punching down at all. The show and Apu _was_ more a step towards working on what the problem was than the problem itself. _Now_ the character is a bit dated but Apu cannot age out, cannot in universe change too much, and killing him off because he is dated is not what the writers want to do. There are other sources now for diverse mass media images of that American sub-culture. > > That said man have I learned that the sound made when a cow is being had is “sheesh”. Ignorance reduced! Pretty much: a not clever or funny retort over a character that is a bit dated. That’s it. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/198 "2018-04-12T13:14:32Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I don’t understand why you replied to a question about the presence of East Asian characters on TV in 1989 by linking to an article about someone who portrayed a South Asian character. I assumed that DSed meant any other characters from the same part of the world as Apu. Apu is Indian, Jawaharlal was Indian. Both shows were on at the same time. If he really was asking about characters from China, Japan, etc. then that was a total non-sequitur to the discussion. But bless your heart anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/199 "2018-04-12T13:18:14Z")
Throughout this thread I’ve been thinking of the _really_ racist starring character from the _Short Circuit_ movies. I just found [this clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2XQn14oea0) where Aziz Ansari confronts Johnny Five over the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/200 "2018-04-12T13:19:20Z")
**[Moderating]** **CarnalK** , I just skimmed through your posts on this page. Almost all of them were unnecessarily inflammatory, and only one was remotely on topic. Since you apparently have no interest in participating in the discussion in this thread, don’t. Do not post any further in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=11)