# The Simpsons poke the Politically Incorrect Bear - The Problem with Apu **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091 "2018-04-09T17:17:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/81 "2018-04-10T17:42:51Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > One of the Indian American actors mentioned in the documentary and quoted in the articles,Utkarsh Ambudkar, portrayed Apu’s nephew in the 2016 “Much Apu About Something” where he specifically critisized Apu for being a stereotype. Also of note, that episode features “Big Bang Theory” scratcher lotto tickets, which I’m quite sure is not a random choice. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/82 "2018-04-10T17:44:19Z")
> [@greenmario](#): > > Do they need to do that with every stereotypical character though? Off the top of my head I can think of Groundskeeper Willie, Fat Tony, Cookie Kwan, the Korean shopkeeper guy, Chief Wiggum, and heck even the latin bumblebee guy. All these characters are arguably detrimental to the image of the groups portrayed. Do they all need sterotype-bucking handcuffs ? > > Edit: actually you can probably scratch Wiggum off the list as Eddie and Lou are pretty “normal” as far as Simpsons characters go Korean shopkeeper guy? ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/83 "2018-04-10T17:50:15Z")
I have light-ish hair, I’m kind of fat, and I smile a lot. I took a class, and the students were mostly brand-new immigrants. Some of the Japanese women in the class giggled during a break and told me I look like Colonel Sanders from KFC. I had never thought that I looked anything like him, and no one else said it about me before or since, but… This is just how people’s brains work. It’s not possible to change human nature like that, to make us all stop categorizing - and therefore also not possible to get us to stop making errors or inappropriate generalizations in that categorizing. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/84 "2018-04-10T17:57:57Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > My issue with the Simpsons response was not that they are saying “Apu isn’t problematic.” The problem is they are saying “20 years ago we didn’t think Apu was problematic so it’s not our fault if people are taking offense now.” Correction… rarely mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/85 "2018-04-10T18:03:32Z")
> [@mazinger\_z](#): > > The show has, in fact, had another non-stereotypical Indian on the show, Apu’s nephew, Jay, in the episode [Much Apu About Something](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Something). Or, does that not count because he’s \>gasp\< Americanized? Jay showed up… once. In the 27th season (one year before The Problem with Apu came out). And the voice actor who voiced Jay (Utkarsh Ambudkar) was actually in “The Problem with Apu”. It actually wasn’t a bad episode in dealing with, for lack of a better word, the problem with Apu. If the Simpsons pointed to that episode and mentioned they were working on exploring those issues further (maybe having Jay, or another Americanized Apu relation, show up a bit more), it would have been ok. But they decided to double down and say there isn’t a problem with Apu. > [@](#): > > Where’s the outrage for the already mentioned Groundskeeper Willy? Or, Fat Tony and his mob? AFAIK, all the Italians (except the chef, Luigi Risotto (really?)) are mobsters. Fat Tony, for one, is voiced by an Italian American. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/86 "2018-04-10T18:04:01Z")
The issue that people are willfully misinterpreting to serve their own ignorance and comfort is that Apu was really one of the first regularly appearing Indian characters on American television. “What about Fat Tony he’s bad for Italians”…except we can literally name hundreds of Italian characters who are not like Fat Tony. “What about Groundskeeper Willie!”…we can also name hundreds of Scottish characters not like Willie. “What about Apu!”…The number of prominent Indian characters on television can fit on two hands. Representation matters. BUT- the point I was getting at was–what happens moving forward? In an ideal world, what should the Simpsons do? The character itself is a well-developed supporting character, but is the baggage of the past too much? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/87 "2018-04-10T18:06:28Z")
But what is the baggage? Is it purely the exaggerated accent? Apu is a fairly normal person on the show. I mean the central theme of the show is a typical fat stupid american father, with a stereotypical self righteous liberal daughter, rudderless son and nagging wife. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/88 "2018-04-10T18:07:25Z")
Maybe the issue is that satirists know that it’s human nature to stereotype, human nature to mischaracterize or miscategorize the unknown or the unfamiliar, …and right now there are more and more people who feel that they have decided on behalf of society that since human nature is not all good, not all justice and compassion, not all sweetness and light, then human nature has been cancelled until further notice. I **AM** a SJW, as far as I can tell. But I’m not stupid. Humans are humans. People are not always nice. Satire is one way of helping to deal with the world. Maybe we need to satirize satirists. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/89 "2018-04-10T18:11:29Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > BUT- the point I was getting at was–what happens moving forward? In an ideal world, what should the Simpsons do? The character itself is a well-developed supporting character, but is the baggage of the past too much? Which is a fair question. The Simpsons is not necessarily where the ‘battle’ (as it were) is, even if their response to The Problem with Apu was tone deaf. FWIW, I think that people should watch The Problem with Apu, or Master of None’s episode “Indians on TV” (4th ep of the 1st season) to get a better viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/90 "2018-04-10T18:21:16Z")
> [@Push\_You\_Down](#): > > The issue that people are willfully misinterpreting to serve their own ignorance and comfort is that Apu was really one of the first regularly appearing Indian characters on American television. > “What about Fat Tony he’s bad for Italians”…except we can literally name hundreds of Italian characters who are not like Fat Tony. > “What about Groundskeeper Willie!”…we can also name hundreds of Scottish characters not like Willie. > “What about Apu!”…The number of prominent Indian characters on television can fit on two hands. > Representation matters. > > BUT- the point I was getting at was–what happens moving forward? In an ideal world, what should the Simpsons do? The character itself is a well-developed supporting character, but is the baggage of the past too much? 1. Is it the fault of The Simpsons that their character was prominent or uncommon? Sure, representation matters, nobody can dispute that - but Groening was not writing society, he was writing a show. _His_ show. A writer getting a call saying “We’re sorry, but our aggregate numbers show that your Dutch character can’t eat licorice or smoke weed, and unfortunately the bicycle is right out as well, because there aren’t enough other Dutch characters on American prime-time TV to balance those out” - well, WTF? 2. I think the whole Simpsons show has accumulated so much baggage, and lost so much steam, that it’s just time. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/91 "2018-04-10T18:31:51Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Which is a fair question. The Simpsons is not necessarily where the ‘battle’ (as it were) is, even if their response to The Problem with Apu was tone deaf. > > FWIW, I think that people should watch The Problem with Apu, or Master of None’s episode “Indians on TV” (4th ep of the 1st season) to get a better viewpoint. What is a win in this battle though? Indian Americans are a very small percentage of the population (~1%?). A meaningful percentage of that are new immigrants who actually do still have an accent and happen to be store owners, engineers or programmers. I watched the #totallybiased bit that inspired the doc, how many famous Indian actors will be “fair”? Will it only be fair when the stereotype is all Indian Americans are articulte, cosmopolitan comedians? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/92 "2018-04-10T18:43:47Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And they are all named Patel. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Around here, the stereotype is probably just as much that they’re physicians or pharmacists. But still named Patel. (Or Shah.) So, I’m calling businesses in New Jersey to sell pest control. I call a motel and ask for the name on the lead, a Mr Patel. I’m transferred to a man with an Indian accent and ask, “Are you Mr Patel?” He replied angrily, “No, I am not. Do you think that because I own a motel my name is Patel?” I was taken aback, stammering, “It’s just the name on the lead.” Patel had sold the joint a few years earlier, making this lead relatively current. At least he hadn’t died ten years ago. > [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Fat Tony, for one, is voiced by an Italian American. Worse yet, one from Cicero, formerly “owned” by Al Capone. But out here we’re used to the Guys. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/93 "2018-04-10T19:07:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What is a win in this battle though? Indian Americans are a very small percentage of the population (~1%?). A meaningful percentage of that are new immigrants who actually do still have an accent and happen to be store owners, engineers or programmers. I watched the #totallybiased bit that inspired the doc, how many famous Indian actors will be “fair”? Will it only be fair when the stereotype is all Indian Americans are articulte, cosmopolitan comedians? It probably would be nice if Indians could speak in their own accents as opposed to a white man mimicking a white man trying to do an Indian accent (Apu’s accent isn’t really an Indian accent - it’s Hank Azaria mimicking Peter Sellers doing an exaggerated accent). For example, listen to Kumail Nanjiani, who rose to prominence playing a computer programmer in Silicon Valley. And I do think that the current trend of Indian roles in TV shows is getting better - Tom Haverford in Parks & Rec played by Aziz Ansari, Aziz’s own character of Dev Shah in Master of None, Lawrence Kutner in House M.D. (played by Kal Penn), etc. Things like that are good. And you can have Indian actors in more stereotypical roles and it comes out fine - Nanjiani as mentioned above is a good example. So I do think that people are doing better in the portrayal of South Asians, but the Simpsons’ response to the documentary was tone deaf. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/94 "2018-04-10T19:14:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You know what I remember about Apu? I remember other characters on the show making fun of him and his culture, and him pointing out that they’re being disrespectful. “Please do not give peanuts to my god!” I totally understand why SE Asians would find Apu offensive. I can’t imagine what it would be like to have to contend with negative cartoon white male stereotypes at every turn. Shame on shows like The Simpsons & Family Guy & Loony Tunes & Animaniacs & South Park for always giving the white guy a pass. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/95 "2018-04-10T19:35:56Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > … but the Simpsons’ response to the documentary was tone deaf. I think a tone-deaf response to a tone-deaf complaint might be a weird kind of poetic justice. But I think it might not work. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/96 "2018-04-10T19:45:21Z")
If the portrayal of Apu had not been crude and inaccurate, it would have been wrong for the show. I didn’t even like The Simpsons that much, and I didn’t watch it often, but I did at times pick up on the fact that it was probably not a documentary. I am having a hard time figuring out why so many are criticizing a stupid cartoon for not being a documentary. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/97 "2018-04-10T20:03:52Z")
Rude jokes are rude, and rudeness is bad. OK. That is not the problem. The problem comes from “…and so because rudeness is bad, rude jokes are not actually jokes, and I declare them Not Funny”. I’m sorry, but what people find funny is not for anyone but themselves to say. Bad taste is absolutely a problem, and misrepresentation of people is a problem, but those are completely separate problems from funny vs not funny. In a different direction: Indians did not elect Apu to anything. Neither did people who work in convenience stores. He represents Apu, not Indians or store keepers. Isn’t it conceited to imagine “He looks like a rude cartoon of me, so this show must be about me!”? What I’ve said there is not right either, because it’s clear that Apu is intended to represent something and not just a free-floating entity - but look, it’s not simple. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/98 "2018-04-10T20:13:10Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > For example, listen to Kumail Nanjiani, who rose to prominence playing a computer programmer in Silicon Valley. It was India at one point, but he is of Pakistani ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/99 "2018-04-10T20:16:41Z")
All I can say to some of the people in this thread is try having some empathy. Maybe, just maybe, people complaining are doing it for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/100 "2018-04-10T20:25:40Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > All I can say to some of the people in this thread is try having some empathy. Maybe, just maybe, people complaining are doing it for a reason. Of course people complaining are doing so for a reason! That doesn’t automatically make their analysis of the situation correct. It’s possible to be hurt by something you saw in a TV show without being an expert on how to create TV shows. It’s possible to be wronged and still not be an ethics professor. It’s possible to be a good person and be incorrect about something. And it’s possible to hold compassion highly as a value without claiming that compassion is the only value that exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=6)