# The Simpsons poke the Politically Incorrect Bear - The Problem with Apu **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 9, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091 "2018-04-09T17:17:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/101 "2018-04-10T20:25:50Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Rude jokes are rude, and rudeness is bad. > > OK. That is not the problem. > > The problem comes from “…and so because rudeness is bad, rude jokes are not actually jokes, and I declare them Not Funny”. > > I’m sorry, but what people find funny is not for anyone but themselves to say. Bad taste is absolutely a problem, and misrepresentation of people is a problem, but those are completely separate problems from funny vs not funny. > In a different direction: Indians did not elect Apu to anything. Neither did people who work in convenience stores. He represents Apu, not Indians or store keepers. Isn’t it conceited to imagine “He looks like a rude cartoon of me, so this show must be about me!”? What I’ve said there is not right either, because it’s clear that Apu is intended to represent something and not just a free-floating entity - but look, it’s not simple. Triple posting? We get it - you can’t regulate The Funny. You really aren’t listening to other points of view: it’s entirely possible to be funny with South Asians _in on the joke, too_. See the various examples already cited. I remember when folks got huffy when LGBT supporters pointed out that “That’s SO Gay!” as a way to say something is weird and off was rude at its base meaning, like “jewing someone down” for money or “‘gypping” someone. This stuff takes time. I wish it would hurry up. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/102 "2018-04-10T20:36:09Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I understand some of the issues with the hammy accent and stereotypical job, but Apu is a developed, important and generally sympathetic character on the show. I can understand the Apu-based taunts some of these guys recieved as kids leaving a lasting impression but I wonder if it would have been much different if Apu never existed. Well, I can see how a show as popular as The Simpsons could encourage more kids to make these kind of taunts thoughtlessly. And I say this as someone who grew up loving the show. While we enlightened people of the Dope may see Apu as a fully developed character, the more ignorant among us who live in non-diverse, culturally insular communities may see Apu as a walking gag simply because he’s comes across as “that Indian guy”. Indian-Americans are often reduced to “that Indian guy” by people who can’t look past stereotypes, and it’s not funny when it happens. It’s alienating and frustrating. So I can’t blame them for cringing at his portrayal. It’s a reminder of how others might see them. This is where comparisons to Groundskeeper Willy fall apart. Scottish-Americans aren’t regarded as weird, low-status foreigners in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/103 "2018-04-10T20:40:24Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It was India at one point, but he is of Pakistani ancestry. In this case I would posit, it’s a distinction without much of a difference (my parents are from Pakistan - though technically my father was born before Pakistan existed). The terms South Asian and Desi have arisen to cover those who are from countries that used to be India (or people from the “Indian subcontinent”). Anyways his accent would be indicative of a Northern Desi accent. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/104 "2018-04-10T20:53:24Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Triple posting? > > We get it - you can’t regulate The Funny. You really aren’t listening to other points of view: it’s entirely possible to be funny with South Asians _in on the joke, too_. See the various examples already cited. > > I remember when folks got huffy when LGBT supporters pointed out that “That’s SO Gay!” as a way to say something is weird and off was rude at its base meaning, like “jewing someone down” for money or “‘gypping” someone. This stuff takes time. I wish it would hurry up. I fully agree with all of this, and I have one thing to add: It’s possible to tell any joke if you’re willing to accept the consequences, which, in any free country, don’t include fines or prison time. That’s always how it’s worked, and none of the various shifts in social mores have really changed that basic principle. What’s more, the shift isn’t new: I can find stuff on the Internet Archive which was funny enough to be committed to wax cylinder because it was in a bad fake Irish-American accent. That’s it. That’s the joke. Those Paddys sure are funny, right? There are other cylinders which are hilarious for doing the same to Krauts. I mention this because those recordings have passed beyond being offensive and into the realm of being incomprehensible. I’m sure some people never quite got over that “de Cherman accent vas no more fonny” and went to their graves doing weird impressions of that one greengrocer they knew in the old neighborhood. Those jokes died, new ones were made, and the world is still funny. Jokes can still be transgressive and disrespectful. ---
**Author:** ![drivekiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@drivekiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drivekiller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/105 "2018-04-10T21:12:52Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Story here in the NYTimes: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/arts/television/the-simpsons-responds-to-criticism-about-apu.html?hpw&rref=television&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/arts/television/the-simpsons-responds-to-criticism-about-apu.html?hpw&rref=television&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=well-region®ion=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well) > > In the last episode, they had a scene where Marge reads a book to Lisa - and while that is happening: > > Man, this seems stupid for them to focus on. . And it’s even more upsetting when you consider the bigotted way The Simpsons portrays white people. /s ---
**Author:** ![drivekiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cdc98d/32.png) [@drivekiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drivekiller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/106 "2018-04-10T21:29:25Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > If the only character representation of who I am was a satirical one, I could easily become annoyed and find it offensive. If every third person I ran into said “thank you, come again” in some unrealistic amalgam of dialects, I would probably be angry about it, and you probably would, too. > > mc So the beef is with the Entertainment Industrial Complex, rather than The Simpsons specifically? Come to think of it, a series following Apu as the main character could be interesting. We see him hiring Bart, hijinks ensue. We get to hear about a cousin or sibling not wanting to have an arranged marriage. We listen in on frank discussions about caste and whether or how it does or does not matter to Indians living in the US. We see him eventually saving enough money to buy out Montgomery Burns, replacing the nuclear power plant with a wind farm. And finally he runs for governor as a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/107 "2018-04-10T21:32:04Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Triple posting? > > We get it - you can’t regulate The Funny. You really aren’t listening to other points of view: it’s entirely possible to be funny with South Asians _in on the joke, too_. See the various examples already cited. > > I remember when folks got huffy when LGBT supporters pointed out that “That’s SO Gay!” as a way to say something is weird and off was rude at its base meaning, like “jewing someone down” for money or “‘gypping” someone. This stuff takes time. I wish it would hurry up. South Asians in on the joke is great. South Asians in on the joke, _on The Simpsons in the 1990s_, would ruin The Simpsons. It would be like repairing old soap operas from India by making sure the actors all portrayed realistic emotions and had believable dialogue, or editing out Dirty Harry’s gun because he might not have completed his pre-purchase paperwork. (I said “in the 1990s” because the characters don’t age etc. Maybe the show being frozen in the 90s is what this is about, IDK.) ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/108 "2018-04-10T21:40:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Well, I can see how a show as popular as The Simpsons could encourage more kids to make these kind of taunts thoughtlessly. And I say this as someone who grew up loving the show. > > While we enlightened people of the Dope may see Apu as a fully developed character, the more ignorant among us who live in non-diverse, culturally insular communities may see Apu as a walking gag simply because he’s comes across as “that Indian guy”. Indian-Americans are often reduced to “that Indian guy” by people who can’t look past stereotypes, and it’s not funny when it happens. It’s alienating and frustrating. So I can’t blame them for cringing at his portrayal. It’s a reminder of how others might see them. This is where comparisons to Groundskeeper Willy fall apart. Scottish-Americans aren’t regarded as **weird, low-status foreigners** in the U.S. It was my understanding the average Indian is doing better than the average white guy. At least thats what Affirmative Action believes yes? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/109 "2018-04-10T21:47:55Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > “Please do not give peanuts to my god!” “[Ganesh has been subdued](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR28AVY63wU)” is one of the greatest lines in _Simpsons_ history. (It is right up there with “[Out of my way, I’m Hitler!](https://comb.io/ObLR0h)” and “[I am familiar with the works of Pablo Neruda.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nqc2ftj1F94)” ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/110 "2018-04-10T21:53:12Z")
What I think a lot of people defending **The Simpsons** don’t understand is that nobody is really asking the show to change. This issue is far bigger than one show; it’s about representation and the dearth of it for decades before other shows that people cited (_The Office, Parks & Rec, House_) improved things. Those of us who have followed the show since the beginning know that Apu has been fleshed out in some major ways that can be argued easily transcend the original stereotype. But while his depiction may not ever change (any effort to do so would almost certainly be clunky and transparent), it still is problematic and has not dated well. And the best the show can do is continue to do what it’s always done and use him sparingly and in a way that highlights the humor of his character and not the superficial (and to some, racist) Southeast-Asian trappings. The **PROBLEM** is that while the show could’ve just ignored this larger conversation and continued to inhabit its small little corner of the Fox empire, it chose to lash back with a defense that is, as others already mentioned, completely tone deaf to the problem and the legitimate, well-articulated criticism of the show. They aren’t expected to solve this issue; they really can’t. But their thin-skinned reaction and shallow complaints about “P.C.” tyranny are like throwing gas on the fire, doubling-down on a position that’s increasingly hard to justify. The fact that they’re so reactive is telling. In a way, they’ve shown that they can dish it out (in the guise of “satire”) but they really can’t take it. **THAT** is the complaint. If anyone needed a reminder of how blinkered and knee-jerk what was once a brilliant and cutting-edge show, this is it. They’ve invited additional scrutiny to their front door, needlessly and somewhat cluelessly. If there was one thing **The Simpsons** were never accused of, it was being dumb. Lowbrow and crass, sometimes, sure. But this was dumb. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/111 "2018-04-10T22:01:27Z")
Yes. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/112 "2018-04-10T22:11:14Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Maybe Irish and Italian Americans didn’t have the same experience because of those stereotypes as Indian Americans did because of Apu. Italians have been combating mobster stereotypes since at least the 70s, when the Italian-American Civil Rights League successfully lobbied TV networks and movie producers (including the makers of The Godfather) to censor the word “Mafia” on the grounds that it was an ethnic slur. (The fact that the man driving the organizer was mobster Joe Columbo is one of those rich little ironies.) Fat Tony is barely a blip on that radar screen. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/113 "2018-04-10T22:34:56Z")
I am upset about the portrayal of yokels on the show. I would like to see more highly-educated yokels, with firm-set jaws. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/114 "2018-04-10T22:41:22Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Jay showed up… once. In the 27th season (one year before The Problem with Apu came out). And the voice actor who voiced Jay (Utkarsh Ambudkar) was actually in “The Problem with Apu”. It actually wasn’t a bad episode in dealing with, for lack of a better word, the problem with Apu. If the Simpsons pointed to that episode and mentioned they were working on exploring those issues further (maybe having Jay, or another Americanized Apu relation, show up a bit more), it would have been ok. But they decided to double down and say there isn’t a problem with Apu. > > Fat Tony, for one, is voiced by an Italian American. Who cares who voices what character. Nitpicking art and culture to this absurd degree will hopefully become as tiresome to produce as it is to witness. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/115 "2018-04-11T01:11:23Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > They’ve invited additional scrutiny to their front door, needlessly and somewhat cluelessly. If there was one thing **The Simpsons** were never accused of, it was being dumb. Lowbrow and crass, sometimes, sure. But this was dumb. DumbER than critiquing a lowbrow satirical cartoon for being such a poor documentary? And… additional scrutiny? For a satirical cartoon that makes fun of people? Seriously? IMO the response from the show was far more respectful and thoughtful than those particular critics deserved. I’m sure the critics find their own writing illuminating and insightful, but in this case such an analysis could only apply if one ignored the subject matter entirely. If a big-time restaurant critic gives The Olive Garden a bad review because he didn’t like the food and the service was slow, fine. If he gives The Olive Garden a bad review because it’s not authentic Mexican food, he’s an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/116 "2018-04-11T01:19:06Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Exactly. My dad was a cop, a highly competent one. Am I supposed to be offended that there is not one competent policeman in Springfield? Touché, but after I posted that, I was thinking some more, and ignoring the race issue, the characterisation of other stereotypes include gay people, parents, Christians, school teachers, and ever it goes on. It’s a cartoon full of archetypes set up to be the butt of dumb jokes. Nobody has ever expressed concern about those before now, have they? ---
**Author:** ![caligulathegod](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/caligulathegod/32/9685_2.png) [@caligulathegod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/caligulathegod)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/117 "2018-04-11T01:24:54Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > If he gives The Olive Garden a bad review because it’s not authentic Mexican food, he’s an idiot. To say the least. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/118 "2018-04-11T02:15:49Z")
> [@MovieMogul](#): > > The **PROBLEM** is that while the show could’ve just ignored this larger conversation and continued to inhabit its small little corner of the Fox empire, it chose to lash back with a defense that is, as others already mentioned, completely tone deaf to the problem and the legitimate, well-articulated criticism of the show. They aren’t expected to solve this issue; they really can’t. But their thin-skinned reaction and shallow complaints about “P.C.” tyranny are like throwing gas on the fire, doubling-down on a position that’s increasingly hard to justify. The fact that they’re so reactive is telling. In a way, they’ve shown that they can dish it out (in the guise of “satire”) but they really can’t take it. **THAT** is the complaint. If anyone needed a reminder of how blinkered and knee-jerk what was once a brilliant and cutting-edge show, this is it. They’ve invited additional scrutiny to their front door, needlessly and somewhat cluelessly. If there was one thing **The Simpsons** were never accused of, it was being dumb. Lowbrow and crass, sometimes, sure. But this was dumb. I’ll start by saying that like so many others, I haven’t watched an episode of _The Simpsons_ in over a decade. I haven’t watched the episode in question, and I’ve only read the dialogue in the OP. That said, I think this is a clear example of why there’s such a backlash against political correctness and attempts to police pop culture for stereotypes. Because _The Simpsons_ did not “lash back” and was not “reactive”. They made a short, small joke. That’s it. The joke does not in any way attack people who are voicing opinions about Apu. It’s just a joke, nothing more. And yet virtually every magazine, website, and liberal Facebook friend that I have is up in arms about this thing today. It is an overreaction. Perhaps you did not like the joke, but this country is a very diverse and vibrant country with lots of popular culture. There’s gonna be jokes on TV that you don’t like, just as there are jokes that I don’t like and jokes that everybody doesn’t like. ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/119 "2018-04-11T02:20:49Z")
> [@greenmario](#): > > Do they need to do that with every stereotypical character though? Off the top of my head I can think of Groundskeeper Willie, Fat Tony, Cookie Kwan, the Korean shopkeeper guy, Chief Wiggum, and heck even the latin bumblebee guy. All these characters are arguably detrimental to the image of the groups portrayed. Do they all need sterotype-bucking handcuffs ? > > Edit: actually you can probably scratch Wiggum off the list as Eddie and Lou are pretty “normal” as far as Simpsons characters go > [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Korean shopkeeper guy? I have to ask the same question. Wha? ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2018, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091/120 "2018-04-11T02:22:28Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > It was India at one point, but he is of Pakistani ancestry. The only Pakistani thats going to be killed by a drone strike inside the US /Gilfoyle [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-simpsons-poke-the-politically-incorrect-bear-the-problem-with-apu/812091.md?page=7)