# The situation in East Timor
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [January 10, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725 "2003-01-10T13:13:30Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/1 "2003-01-10T13:13:30Z")
This is a continuation of a hijack I made in this thread - didn’t want to get spanked by the mods.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by royjwood \*
> \*\*First of all, the president, Gusmao, is incredibly incompetent, and also too arrogant to accept any advice, so he screws up wven when advised to consider an alternative action. He is also a major hypocrite, in that as much as he openly decries corruption and nepotism, he secretly is as corrupt as Soeharto and Soekarno. Fortunately or maybe not, the Office of the President is nothing but a powerless figurehead. His election was rigged from the start, as early as one year prior, the head of the Transitional Administration constantly referred to Gusmao to the Timorese as “your first (or next) president!” Now, this in itself is not only a violation of UN policy, but most improper as the Timorese are basically followers and will do almost whatever they are told. Gusmao was also given his unlimited flights on UN aircraft to conduct his campaign, thus the UN openly ordained this criminal as the president. Further, out of the original four other contenders, three of them “suddenly decided” not to run, while only one person with no chance of winning was allowed to run against him.
>
> Then there is the prime minister, who was never elected, in fact, he was basically self-appointed. He is also the head of the largest of the mafia type organised criminal familes in East Timor and has been stealing large amounts of money from the poeple to build fancy houses for himself and his family and even going so far as to give stolen “seed” money from contract bids to his brother to purchase construction equipment and then granting all construction contracts only to him.
>
> Finally, most of the “ministers” are the traitors who abandoned East Timor when the Indonesion military unlawfully invaded this sovereign country with the express approval and blessings from the American traitor Ford.
>
> All of this lead to a very unhappy population, with small anti-government riotting all-around the country, and of course 4 Dec 02 was very famous in Dili. We are expecting a very bloody civil war within the next few years if something does not change.
>
> I hope that answered your question. \*\*
I’m really sorry, but not all that surprised, that Gusmao turns out to be an idiot. Sometimes the best figureheads in a struggle turn out to be terrible in peace time (a la Churchill). But I’m seriously disappointed to hear that too. No doubt this is a common occurence after independence - can you see anything being done about the corruption by the UN? Or is it fairly doomed?
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/2 "2003-01-10T13:15:16Z")
Sorry, in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=155516) thread.
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/3 "2003-01-10T13:36:53Z")
Well, I think that history has pretty shown that guerrillas / terrorists seldom make good national leaders! Look at Arafat…
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### Author:  [@samboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samboy)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/4 "2003-01-10T13:54:08Z")
(should this not be in GD?)
Sorry, but when did it become common knowledge that ET was run by a corrupt government. This is news to me.
First of all I think we can afford ET a few breaks, being the newest country in the world today and having gain independance about a YEAR or two ago, they are harly going to spring forth as the model of a democratic nation after the hiding the Militia (AKA Indonesian Army) gave them when they left.
Secondy, Gusmao was the head of the resistance movement in ET for (my details are sketchy) but for as long as I can remember hearing about the problem (I grew up in Darwin). It was never really disputed that he would lead the country if (then later when) they gained independance.
> [@](#):
>
> as the Timorese are basically followers and will do almost whatever they are told
Wrong! The East Timorese will do basically everything that Xanana Gusmao tells them to do because they respect and admire him and did respect and admire him throughout the long 20 odd years of occupation and resistance.
> [@](#):
>
> All of this lead to a very unhappy population, with small anti-government riotting all-around the country, and of course 4 Dec 02 was very famous in Dili. We are expecting a very bloody civil war within the next few years if something does not change.
Jesus, I think I am missing something huge here. From what I have heard, the timorese population are quite happy with the inept/naive/young/idealistic government that they have, because it is their own. I say this in the most modest of tones but could you please elighten me on the horrors that you see there today.
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/5 "2003-01-10T14:39:39Z")
Samboy, my son, you are defintiely missing quite a lot. Not to be offensive, though.
My family is Timorese, I live and communicate with the Timorese every day, and I can assure you, they will follow almost anyone who speaks well. I have a rather large following myself. The growing discontent is evident throughout the country and althought the government is primarilly Fretelin, the people are quickly switching over to CPD-RDTL (a rather militant group at best).
And corruption is never acceptable. Unfortunately, with the level of Censorship (usually through very high level harassment to non-government affiliated media, government owned main-line media, and through the PM owning one of the in this countries largest non-government owned media) the truth is seldom allowed to be presented to the so-called free peoples of East Timor.
The people are unhappy with many things, not just the obvious corruption of the government, but also with the governments wasting of good money (that could be put to good use for education, water, electricity, communications, justice, and so on and so forth) on residences, extensive world travels and staying at extremely expensive hotels. They know the government has money, but they never see any effects. That is why on 4 Dec 02 they reacted so angrily. Yes, I witnessed it up very close.
I get to see the daily Police / military reports that will never be released to the public about various problems around the country.
The people are becoming more and more angry as the PM continues to openly lie to them, making ridiculous promises that he never even comes close to keeping. Why did they burn two of his houses on 4 Dec 02?
Baucau continues to have many problems and the other districts always seem to have “small” problems that the government writes off as independent village problems, but are just the grassroots campaign of CPD-RDTL spreading around. The government likes to blame the ex-militia for everything that goes wrong, but it was not ex-militia leading those groups, I personally identified CDP-RDTL and even UDT leaders encouraging the criminals.
Being fully fluent in Tetun and rather knowledgeable in Bahasa Indonesia, it is easy for me to communicate with the locals.
If you leave the safety of Darwin and travel around East Timor, first, gaining their trust, and then speaking with the locals in their native language, you will learn quite a whole lot more than if you just sit there relying on ABC, CNN, or BBC.
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### Author:  [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/6 "2003-01-10T15:48:45Z")
Hi **royjwood**. Recently I was speaking about E Timor to a former bureaucrat who has since moved on to a country with even greater problems than E Timor. I’d appreciate your opinion on his view. He said that the political elite and the middle class just don’t realise that E Timor is one of the poorest countries around and will remain so for several generations _even if things go well_. Most of the leaders and middle class were elsewhere (Australia and Portugal mainly) and have become accustomed to such things as decent education and health systems. Their attitude is “Surely it’s not too much to ask that children have a decent education and that the talented ones go on to university” whereas it _is_ too much to ask.
Today’s best and brightest will have to teach tomorrow’s best and brightest to train teachers. The people _they_ teach might have something like the opportunities the middle class takes for granted after living in rich countries for a quarter of a century.
The problem, in other words, is lack of infrastructure and grossly inflated expectations.
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### Author:  [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/7 "2003-01-10T16:03:09Z")
OK, so Gusmao’s a lousy politician. The PM’s a purported mafioso. How does that, or ten other things we don’t like about the East Timorese government, negate their right to secede from Indonesia and form an independent nation, like they wanted for over 25 years?
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### Author:  [@samboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samboy)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/8 "2003-01-10T16:09:02Z")
**royjwood** , It is clear that your knowledge of the situation is vastly more extensive than mine, and quite eye opening.
I think I have some research to do on our closest neighbour before I can comment more.
WIth respect, Sam.
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/9 "2003-01-10T16:18:15Z")
First of all, there is no “middle-class”; it is either the political and business elite (the two aer pretty much the same) and the rest of us. The only so-called middle-class would have to be the international community, which do not count.
When UNTAET was here, their mandate was to create a viable government and give it to the East Timorese.
Instead they created a hollow egg-shell government with no infrastructure and gave it back to Portugal.
The so-called leaders are so out of touch with reality, that it is nowhere near funny.
Yes, Timor is very poor, and the people are uneducated. But the land is rich and with proper agricultural methodology and technology, the country could feasibly become, agriculturally speaking, self-supporting. This would help the economy by allowing the people a less expensive option for sustenance: rather than paying foreign prices for foreign people to ship foreign foods into Timor, and then paying import and sales taxes, plus grocery store overhead, they could pay local people local currency (USD) to grow / raise local food…period. The shipping costs, import fees, sales taxes, and grocery store overhead would be all but eliminated, thus saving the locals lots of money and allowing the profits to remain in Timor and not being sent back to some foreign land. The food could be marketed in the local markets which have minimal overhead and no sales taxes.
The money that is then generated into the local economy could start being spent elsehwere in the local economy creating a much more stable and healthy economy.
Second, the government should lower the import and sales taxes (up to 40%) that are forcing the other products to be sold at such ridiculously high prices. Real world ecomonies have proven that higher taxes slow the economy.
Next, the education system should focus on national interests, (what technology or industry could Timor benefit from the most?) and start teaching towards that goal. Look at India, Singapore, and Japan, well, actualy most of Asia has a focal industry that brings in money for that country, but it can be focused towards domestic concerns as well.
Plus, they should consider ditching that stupid Portuguese language. No one else around here uses that language, so it is worthless to these people, less than 10 % speak it already. English is the only acceptable language for all things international, especially trade, tourism, commerce, and well, everything. But Bahasa (Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, and parts of the Phillipines) should be maintained as well as their national language of Tetun (National Pride).
The people have been lied to from the very beginning, in order to ensure the votes, the pro-independence hawkers told of all of the great things that freedom and democracy would bring, but they never explained about how long it would take, and the fact that no Timorese are competent to fulfill the required technical positions.
Speaking of Democracy, is it democratic to have a self-appointed PM?
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### Author:  [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/10 "2003-01-10T16:24:49Z")
I think I agree with **samboy**. I’m moving this to GD.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/11 "2003-01-10T16:41:30Z")
Sorry. Put this here because there wasn’t a debate (at least, not at first).
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/12 "2003-01-10T17:04:22Z")
Olentzero,
I never stated that they should not be allowed to have independence, if you will read my posts, you will not see anything to that effect. I believe that that all people have the right to be free, but these people are being pushed into the same thing they have wanted away from for a whole lot more than just 25 years.
You may note that the Portuguese had to slaughter tens of thousands of Timorese before they finally gained some semblance of control around the 1950’s or 60’s.
Please show a little respct and not try to place words in other peoples mouths. Dishonesty is not accepable, anywhere.
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### Author:  [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/13 "2003-01-10T18:53:47Z")
So what’s the point about singling out the faults of the new East Timorese government? There are governments far more corrupt and undemocratic than them in the world.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/14 "2003-01-10T19:14:05Z")
Well, it’s probably because he lives in East Timor, and the thread is about East Timor.
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### Author:  [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/15 "2003-01-10T20:27:49Z")
I just don’t see the conclusions he’s trying to arrive at. OK, things are pretty freaking horrible there in East Timor. (Not like it’s not the case elsewhere around the world.) Improvements will take time, and measures need to be taken to enable the Timorese to be able to govern themselves. While Gusmao and the PM aren’t the legacy of the Indonesian government, the rest of the situation (with the complete disenfranchisement of the Timorese at its foundation) definitely is.
Things are bad. Things need to be done. **royjwood** seems to despair of the Timorese being able to get out of the mess themselves, since he believes they’ll follow anyone who speaks well, and that those who speak well are lying to the people. Which ways forward does that leave open?
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [January 10, 2003, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/16 "2003-01-10T21:37:27Z")
Maybe nothing, but remember that he wasn’t the one who brought the whole subject up. He was asking about his cat’s “problems” and mentioned that since he was in East Timor, some things (like vets, electricity, etc) were in short supply. Then **jjim** asked him about the political situation over there, and **royjwood** explained what he thought about it.
Then you sort of jumped in and accused him of trying to defend the Indonesian occupation, when he had said no such thing.
Anyway, **Olentzero** , I think you’re being a bit harsh on him. I don’t think he has any conclusions or proposals. Just pointing out that things are going badly, and he thinks Gusmao is the wrong person to lead right now. Nothing sinister.
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### Author:  [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)
#### Post date: [January 11, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/17 "2003-01-11T13:00:03Z")
Yeah, leave **royjwood** alone. _Mea culpa_ for bringing it up; and everything he has written is a) way more informed than anyone else on this particular subject, and b) just his opinion.
As I said before, there wasn’t really a debate here, it was just me asking about the situation post-independence.
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2003, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/18 "2003-01-14T13:07:16Z")
Howdy,
I just wanted to say thanks to both Neurotik and jjimm.
I have been out in the regions in response to several problems, so I missed out on the what a bad person royjwood is debate.
But I greatly appreciated your responses.
Thanks!
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### Author:  [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/19 "2003-01-14T13:36:00Z")
royjwood,
Could I ask you give your undoubtedly expert opinion on what is the best way forward for East Timor?
Should the UN return? did they leave a vacuum that allowed the corruption you detail to occur?
How long would you reckon it will take to get East Timor back on its feet?
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### Author:  [@royjwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/royjwood)
#### Post date: [January 14, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-situation-in-east-timor/147725/20 "2003-01-14T14:12:25Z")
Well…
Actually, the UN is still here, but only in an advisory role to the government (100 core posts).
What should have happened from the beginning:
1. is an infrastructure should have been created with which to prop the new government, as well as agricultural education and advancewment programs.
2. And then conduct very strenous screening / training programs for the basic civil servants.
3. And finally, after the elected positions such as Pres, PM, and MPs are sworn in then, they too, should have been required to undergo intensive education in more than just rhetoric and untested theories, but in real world politics and governance. As well, the Ministrers should have been strenously screened and educated.
However, what happened was:
1. the infrastructure and agriculture was practically ignored.
2. friends and family members of certain “elite” were apointed into positions with no orientation or training program.
3. only the pres was elected, however, it was rigged frmo the beginning, the parliamentary election was based on political parties and not people, and the PM was self-appointed; and also never received any orientation or training. And of course, the Ministers were also friends and family of the “elite”.
To correct these shortcomings, much effort should be focused on bringing qualified and experienced specialists into East Timor to train the locals in infrastructure and agriculture. Instead of just dumping money on the government for the “elite” to steal, the money should be provided with the specialists to correct certain problems…such as the water, electricity, roads, etc.
Reality can be painful sometimes, and it will take at least 5 years (total) to get the government really ironed out. But with an effort into the infrastructure and agriculture, the people will start seeing tangible activities and results and can know trhat the government is working.
Two of the largest mistakes made by the administration was:
1. dollarization - declaring the US Dollar as the offical currency. The economy was designed to support the Indonesion Rupiah (9000 to 1 USD). Most shopping cost less than one US Dollar, meaning a whole lot of loose change…or horrible inflation. Inflation resulted in the 1000% range and above!
2. Portuguese language - declaring the Portuguese language as the official language. Less than 10% of the population speaks Portuguese, even fewer can read or write it. For the most part, it is only certain of the older group and the “elite” who speak it. The majority of the population speaks their local tongue (Mambai, Kemak, Makasae, etc), plus Tetun, plus Bahasa Indonesia. And almost none of them want to learn Portuguese. The majority of the population wants to learn the international language: “ENGLISH”! This is one of the ways the government has distanced themselves from the people they claim to represent.
The coruption was learned from around 450 years of Portuguese rule and 24 years of Indonesion occupation. Both administrations operated very corrupt governments with a strong emphasis on violence. It will probably take at least one generation to teach the people more peaceful and less corrupt means of living.
Any other questions?
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