The Skinny on Dog Food?

Factual Questions
21

What? Your vet sugested you feed chicken bones to your dog? I have always been told that chicken bones are bad for dogs, because the way they break down leads to lots of sharp little splinters of bone that could easily puncture the intestines.

Hmmm…ok, after a bit of reading, it seems that cooked chicken bones are what’s bad, and raw ones might be OK. And that the danger associated even with the cooked ones seems to have been overstated.

Does on of the SDMB vets want to answer this for me definatively?

22

This leads me to two questions.

I currently feed my two 65 lb dogs Purina Dog Chow. This is all they get.

  1. Is Purina not the best thing to give them? Would you folks recommend that I start looking into alternatives?

  2. What exactly is a raw diet? How does one prepare this for their dogkids?

  3. My partner and I have been butting heads over feeding schedules. She wants the dogs to eat once a day (evening around 6pm) and I prefer feeding them half of their daily amount around 7am then the other half around 6-7pm) I think it’s better to eat a smaller amount every 12 hours rather than the whole kit and kaboodle every 24 hours.

I realize that was three questions.

Thanks!

23

I wouldn’t base your decision on some guy’s story about HIS dog, and him passing on something the food seller said. If your dog is doing fine on it, keep him on it.

To the OP: you’re being way too picky. Dogs eat SHIT and VOMIT for pete’s sake. I wouldn’t worry about ground up chicken beaks or other dead pets. There’s probably a lot of protein in them.

We give our dogs VERUS. It “all natural” (whatever that means). All I know is they like it, and their coats, and noses and poops do fine with it.

24

My point of view (and experience):

cooked chicken bones- Problematic, as they splinter and can lead to perforation of the gastrointestinal tract. They also can cause obstipation/impaction.

raw chicken bones- Less problematic, unless they happen to carry Salmonella spp or some other bacteria.

There are better alternatives, IMO. Then again, problems are good for business.:wink:

25

Personally, I would not feed regular Purina Dog Chow. It has a very low percentage of meat and a very high percentage of fillers. You feed more, the dog gets less nutrition from it , and they poop more. I do like Purina O.N.E , tho, and I feed the sensitive stomach formula mixed half and half with Eukanuba for my dogs, not that they have sensitive stomachs, but the salmon it is made with puts BEAUTIFUL coats on them.

I am not an expert on raw diets, but I know it involves using raw meat (usually chicken) bone and all , vegetables and rice. It is usually ground. I personally do not like the idea of feeding my dogs raw chicken , no matter what. I do often add veggies , rice and good meat to their food, and they love raw veggies as a treat.

Two meals a day are DEFINITELY better for your dogs. WAY, WAY better. Especially if your dogs are of the deep chested variety (German Shepherd, Dobe, Setters , Bloodhound, etc) because these dogs are prone to bloat (Gastric tortion), and 1 large meal a day definitely increses their risk. Bloat is largely fatal. Besides, wouldn’t you rather have 2 meals a day to look forward to than just one big one? So please try to convince your partner that yes, 2 meals are much better than 1 !

26

We do the twice a day feeding schedule. Our vet and several books reccomended it but I forget exactly why. Probably the same reason why it’s better for people to eat smaller meals than one bit one, metabolizing the food at a more constant rate and all.

27

velveeta, I didn’t mean to imply you were a fanatic. You mentioned having a link that stated the information about dead animals and I meant that whoever provided you that information is more than likely a fanatic.

To the OP and everyone who suggested feeding chicken to dogs…Don’t…Please. Raw chicken bones have just as much chance of splintering and piercing through the intestines as cooked. I am not a vet but I am a vet tech. I HAVE seen dogs come into the practice with complications from being fed ‘safe’ uncooked chicken bones. Injuries can and DO happen and it’s a serious sometimes fatal thing when they do. Why take the chance? Dry kibble does a wonderous job at cleaning their teeth and Dentabones are a fantastic supplement to help the process. Hell, alot of vets even recommend giving them rope toys since the individual strands work like floss.

The Chao Goes Mu, to reply to your questions.

  1. Purina’s not the worst out there. Usually it’s the no name store brands you have to watch out for. Iams is better, Royal Canin even better. But in your situation you have to consider bulk and cost. Two 65 lb dogs can certainly make a dent in your wallet if you start feeding them the highest quality food there is. I would suggest going to a petstore and looking for brands that list a meat as the first ingredient (not a meat meal) and then choosing between them by price.

  2. Basically raw is what it sounds like. Consists mainly of raw meat with other foods and supplements thrown in. I’m not the best person to explain it since I’m adamantly against it because of the problems it can and does cause.

  3. Feeding schedule. I would very much recommend the twice a day feedings. Why? Well because you’ve got bigger dogs. And feeding big dogs one large meal a day is asking for trouble. As I’m sure you know, dogs gulp down their food like crazy. Big dogs gulp down alot of food at once when fed once a day. And very often they’re active immediately after eating. This can lead to a very serious condition called Gastric Dilatation Volvulus, or bloat.
    Basically what happens is that gases start to build in the stomach, making it twist around. This is a fatal situation if not immediately dealt with by a vet through surgery. Symptoms are unproductive retching after eating, glassy eyes, a distended stomach, excessive salivating and restlessness. While this is more common in deep chested dogs like great danes, dobies, etc, any large dog can have this happen.
    And so to prevent this, you feed the dog smaller meals over the course of the day as opposed to one big meal. Also making sure there’s not excessive exercise after a meal helps. I don’t want to scare you though, this isn’t something that’s guaranteed to happen but it can. So feeding twice a day is definately a better option. :slight_smile:

28

There are two schools of raw diet beliefs:

  1. BARF: Bones And Raw Flesh/Biologically Appropriate Raw Foods. I find that these people usually grind their food and add things like veggies, rice etc.

http://www.barfworld.com/

  1. RMB: Raw Meaty Bones. That’s it. Here’s a pig head, Fido!

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

29

Although I would take the tubular bones out of poultry before giving it to my dogs, why would you be opposed to giving raw chicken to your dog? I don’t think canines are susceptible to salmonella, and if they are, it’s very minor, no?

I still don’t understand the logic of giving the dog rice. I’d guess nothing is still better than rice. I mean, humans barely can eat that stuff, why would you feed it to a dog?
I understand that feeding the dog meat and bones only can get pricey and boring, and you need filler, but rice?

30

Ok… my vet scared the heck out of me… noteably, we had just lost a family friend of 8 years to diabetes, so I was/am even more protective of our new devil…err… doggie.

The vet said to avoid rope toys because the dog can/will swallow the strings, they can get “strung out” in the intestines and cause issues… major issues.

So, she still gets rope toys (that she promptly shreds) but we’re constantly running around picking up the strings… same for all of the other little toys she shreds… (we have a 5 minute rule… pretty much any toy we get her (save for the ‘tires’ and some of the chew bones) are generally gutted within 5 minutes.

So, there are a couple of Vets on here… what;s the real story on toys for doggies?

FWIW, We have a Jack Russell/Min Pin mix (mut from mississipi)… we feed her primarily table scraps, and occasionally mix in parts of some canned food that she seems to like. I’d say 75% or better of her diet is human safe… since it’s what we’re eating at the time… cooked meats, veggies, potatoes, rice, whatever… just no onions (also heard that was bad for them).

She also DEMANDS her bits of ice-cream (she gets to lick the bowl) and the last bite of anything.

Am I ruining my dog? She seems ok… :wink:

31

Dogs are just as susceptible to salmonella as humans. Raw meat can harbor all sorts of nasties, parasites, protozoa, the much feared trichinella from pork. And despite popular belief otherwise, freezing meat does NOT kill these dangers, as indicated here at the USDA webpage

32

If your vet says no, listen to the vet. Most dogs don’t tear up rope toys so that’s not an issue but yours does so… Have you tried Kong balls? They’re pretty near indestructible although I’ve heard tales of very strong and determined dogs!

And you’re feeding her only table scraps and canned food? Not good for her long term health. Have you talked to your vet about this? She’s going to be more prone to obesity, diabetes, pancreititis (from the high fat/protein diet), dental issues and many other problems stemming from inproper nutrition. It doesn’t sounds good for her health to feed her like that. You need to get her on a proper kibble diet. It’s going to be a pain in the ass, I can tell you right now, but it will be better for her. Talk to you vet about it and see if they offer any suggestions on how best to wean her off ‘junk food’.

33

She does have several Kong toys… mostly used as PeanutButter delivery systems when the whole family goes out, and she has to stay home alone.

I have listened to the Vet… but I also know that vets, and petstores, make money off of selling high priced kibble, and as others have suggested they are high in grains and, IHMO, “lesser quality” food.

We also had a hard time finding one she liked…she got bored with many of them to the point of not eating… and at that point, she had not been introduced to table food, so it wasn’t a “i’ll act pitiful till I get what I want” act (she does do that now, but we know it, and so does she).

So, I/we started out trying to be the “good doggie parents” with all that Science Diet this and iams that.

I also fail to see how a cooked meat diet, along with veggies/rice and potatoes is somehow “worse” for the dog… the diet is reasonably balanced in this respect.

The canned food we use is mostly for those nights we’re we eat pizza/chinese or somehting that she will get very little of.

34

Not to add any flames to the fire, but dogs are not “just as susceptible” to salmonella, etc, as people–their digestive systems are very short and highly acidic, and designed specifically to eat raw meat and bones, right down to very nasty, scavenged carcasses. A healthy dog properly introduced to a raw diet should have nothing to fear from bacteria found in meat sold for human consumption. Furthermore, with improved feed practices, trich is also not something we need to fear from commercially raised, USDA meat.
Many vets and vet techs are big on anti-raw food stuff, which is understandable, since they probably see few dogs that are fed a well-researched, “balanced” raw diet, and also tend to get the dogs that are having problems with it. I did my homework, and work very hard at being sure my critters get a wide variety of meat, bones, and organ meats with as much grass-fed and wild game as possible, and my dog (literally) stops traffic–people stop us all the time to ask about him. He has annual full bloodwork done and hits the marks smack down the middle with every single check.

Now, I admit, I am a teentsy bit of a “fanatic” in the regard that unless some massive, compelling reason arises, I will never, ever feed dry food to my pets, but not in the sense that I think everyone should feed raw food. It’s a lot of work, and takes more thought and time and effort than scooping kibble out of a bag, and if you are lazy about it you can do some serious damage with nutritional deficiencies. I have a laundry room half-occupied by a huge chest freezer with everything from chicken to venison, and everything in between–salmon, trout, pike, mackerel, lamb, beef, buffalo, rabbit, pork, turkey, green tripe, you name it.

There are some decent dry foods out there. When I worked in the pet industry, my favorites were Solid Gold, Innova, and Canidae. I’ve heard good things about Eagle Pack. I believe firmly in the benefits of a diet comprised of fresh food (when’s the last time your doctor told you to eat more processed food for better health?), but I also know that the vast majority of people just aren’t interested in putting as much or more effort into feeding their pets as they do themselves :wink:

35

Thanks to everyone for their contributions to this thread, I’m learning a lot.

For the people who suggested I ask my vet for his advice, I mean you no disrespect, but IMHO there’s a conflict of interest if I use this method of advice seeking.

I understand my vet has a million doller building to pay a mortgage on, as well as the saleries of all his staff.
Half of his clinic is a pet store woned by him, which sells various kinds of kibles and pet stuff.

As much as I trust him with the care of my animals, I don’t think it’s reasonable for him to recommend a product he doesnt sell because let’s face it … he’s a business man. I can’t see him suggesting a food which he doesnt sell, and this is the reason I’m seeking information from this post.

It’s difficult sifting through all the info and trying to determine the best solution, but I am getting there and will make the best choice I’m capable of under the circumstances.
What else can we do, right?

Regards

36

They make money off selling kibble as much as any business makes money off selling food. It’s no different. The food you see IN the vet’s office is there because it’s prescription. Vet’s can NOT sell that unless it’s been prescribed out. That’s why you don’t see m/d or r/d in the petstores. As much as some people may thing otherwise, vets are NOT in the field for the money. They’re in it because they care about animals. Not about ripping people off for every cent they have.

She stops eating cause she knows she’ll get what she wants if she holds out long enough. Constantly changing a dog’s diet isn’t good for their digestive system. It leads to diarrhea. Dogs are not like cats. It won’t hurt them if they pull a hunger strike because they WILL eventually eat. You just need to make sure you don’t give in before they do.

Have you researched the nutrional values needed for a dog her size? Her age? Her energy level? Have you researched the amount of each vitamin, mineral in every thing you give her? Given it in the right portions? Have you made sure she’s not lacking in certain supplements? Or do you just feed her what you’re eating and since it’s well balanced for a human it must be the same for a dog?

37

Thanks PapSett and Yukionna, I think I’ll start looking into alternatives. Now I just have to convince my partner that we may need to change a few things.

FTR, one of my dogs is a Shepherd mix so we do put some water in her dry food to try to prevent bloat.

Regarding the stringy rope toys. We took our dogs’ rope toys away becuase they would pull out pieces of string and eat them. :rolleyes:

The only toys they cannot mutilate are Kong toys and, believe it or not, raquet balls.

Hey, a good trick to keep your dog quiet, say when company is over, is to put peanut butter inside a Kong and freeze it, then give it to your dog. It’ll keep them busy for quite a while as they try to lick the peanut butter out. My dogs absolutely love it.

38

Wow…

Clearly I haven’t… However, since most of the “breakdowns” are in percentages, it can be shown that I follow the general guidelines…

More Protein, less fat, less carbs, etc.

You dont have to be a dietician to understand basic nutritional needs.

As for supplements… again, if you get the right varieties of foods… it can do no worse than what is pre-packaged, dried up and made up of “whatever is left over”… when I say “table scraps”… What I really mean is that she get’s her portion of what we are eating for dinner… even to the point that we buy extra cuts of meat to ensure she gets a fair share… (veggies and stuff isnt a problem for extras)… she not just getting left overs.

She’s happy, healthy, playful and full of life… in essence, she’s thriving.

But, I will also continue to research what I can do better for her, so that she keeps doing those things.

This thread is helpful in that I have learned of a couple more brands of better dog food…atleast one of which is mixed with fresh meats… and is essentially veggies and grains/rice.

Now… I’ll slowly slink away out of the conversation…since I cannot defend my position any better than that…

39

one last thing…

As I posted, she stopped eating the prepared foods WAY before we ever started the ‘human’ food… we’d try a new brand/bag/whatever of “good” dog food… she’d eat it for a day or three, then you could see her get bored with it… we did not supplement with anything else…

Get a different brand/flavor… would work for a day or so… ad infinitum… then I researched more “natural” approaches, and put together her diet… she gets what we get… but more emphasis on protein, less on grains/fillers… but still proportanite on each.

The truth is now she knows that what we put down for her she will eat… and if she waits she gets nothing else… so the nites when it is only dog food… she’ll play us for awhile, and then go eat it… just like a good little dog.

40

Funny how heated a discussion about dog food can get. :smiley:
I feed tables scraps when I have them - leftover fish, chicken, steak, veggies - and a combo of frozen ground raw diet from Nature’s Variety mixed with Honest Kitchen dehydrated food. There is also a bowl full of Innova Evo left on the floor all the time that he picks at (won’t work for many dogs obviously). Once a week or so he gets a raw marrow bone to chew on. You are free to pick him apart and tell me what I’m doing wrong:
CH Tanasea’s Perfect Storm , multiple BOB winning Shiba Inu

Sorry you can’t see his pearly white teeth. :slight_smile:
Until Evo came along I could not feed kibble - ANY kibble - because of the diarrhea the grain caused. I spent a small fortune in vet bills trying to figure out why my puppy had chronic, often bloody, diarrhea. After 9 months and two vets, vet #2 told me to go ahead and try raw. I switched to one of the frozen ground-up complete diets and the problem cleared up in 2 days. He’s 3 now and only has a problem if he gets fed something grain heavy - like a Greenie.
OTOH, many dogs do poorly on raw and high protein/low carb diets like EVO.
The point is there is not just one right way.