# The Slacker superhero has a pacifist problem. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 7, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598 "2013-10-07T16:34:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/21 "2013-10-07T21:29:03Z")
Well, at what point do Bob’s actions specifically become “defense of the village” as opposed to a plan old ass-kicking? If they are 5 miles away, is he defending the village? 10? 250? Sort of like the thread asking when does a collection of beakers and chemicals become a meth lab. Bob takes on the Purifiers because that’s what Bob wants to do. The fact that the village is nearby is incidental. StG ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/22 "2013-10-07T21:35:19Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Just to be clear: are the deaths Bob is trying to keep off his conscience those of the commune, or of the next village? First one, then the other. > [@](#): > > Because if it’s the latter, he can always go home, grab a slice of pizza at Coalfire’s, and come back to kick Purifier ass on a full stomach. If it’s the former, though, what gives Bob’s moral comfort higher priority than the pacifists’? Well, first of all, you should never kick evil’s ass on a full stomach. You’ll give yourself a cramp. Secondly, nothing gives Bob’s moral comfort a higher priority than the villagers, but then, nothing gives the villager’s moral comfort a higher priority than Bob’s. Objectively speaking, both concerns are equal. Since neither action is inherently more moral than the other, Bob is able to act from enlightened self interest, and choose the path that doesn’t lead to him having nightmares for the rest of his life. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/23 "2013-10-07T21:35:24Z")
Bob should intervene, but attempt to avoid killing in the process, even if this decreases the effectiveness of his aid. Personally, I’d start by slicing all the Gundams off at the knees using heat vision. I might also use x-ray vision and super-hearing to attempt to determine the leadership, and carry them away. ---
**Author:** ![Aquadementia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aquadementia/32/555_2.png) [@Aquadementia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquadementia)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/24 "2013-10-07T21:42:46Z")
Here’s an idea. Let’s say the bad guys are coming in on along a straight road. Plant the elders in the road to greet the army, each one a few hundred yards ahead of the other so the next guy can see what’s coming. Tell them if no one cries out for help he won’t save them. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/25 "2013-10-07T21:43:02Z")
I usually at least give your polls a chance. Sometimes I dive right it. But for some reason I’m just not into it today. So I’ll go with the pound cake. And a nice cup of tea would be appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/26 "2013-10-07T21:50:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Bob should intervene, but attempt to avoid killing in the process, even if this decreases the effectiveness of his aid. Personally, I’d start by slicing all the Gundams off at the knees using heat vision. I might also use x-ray vision and super-hearing to attempt to determine the leadership, and carry them away. I am less sanguine than you that Bob can slice the Gundams in half with his flash vision without causing collateral damage that’d risk the lives and/or safety of the pilots. Besides, he already avoids killing. He could’ve tossed the first mecha pilot to the hyenas rather than let fate decide, for instance, and he obviously never intended to kill Purifiers he didn’t have to. > [@Loach](#): > > I usually at least give your polls a chance. Sometimes I dive right it. But for some reason I’m just not into it today. So I’ll go with the pound cake. And a nice cup of tea would be appreciated. Choosing a pound cake option IS diving right in. How am I supposed to decide which recipe to try if you guiys don’t vote? ---
**Author:** ![XRaeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/f14d63/32.png) [@XRaeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XRaeth)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2013, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/27 "2013-10-07T23:21:53Z")
I vote he goes down to ask the purifiers to leave, when they refuse, wipe them out then tell the villagers that he was going to let them go, but they insulted his mother and he just wasn’t going to stand for that. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/28 "2013-10-08T00:18:47Z")
Bob should pound the shit out of the pacifiers, then send the village to the phantom zone so he never has to deal with protecting those ungrateful nincompoops again. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/29 "2013-10-08T00:53:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Choosing a pound cake option IS diving right in. How am I supposed to decide which recipe to try if you guiys don’t vote? I’ll follow you anywhere. As long as there is pound cake. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/30 "2013-10-08T01:10:55Z")
I recently read a book about, more or less, this very topic. No superhero, but a city of pacifists facing an invading army. When at the end the pacifists started high-fiving each other for their pacifist solution (that involved a lot of violence done by others they incited to it, rather than themselves) I threw the book literally, across the room, I was so pissed off. He should let the town be leveled, and he should then destroy the Purifiers as they leave on their way to the next town. The countryside deserves to know what happens to actual pacifists when the other side isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/31 "2013-10-08T01:24:18Z")
> [@Disposable Hero](#): > > If I’m feeling generous I might destroy one of the Mecha’s first in suitably showy manner to give the others a chance to change their minds and retreat. I’m supposed to be the nice guy here. The super hero isn’t supposed to figure out that the example is for him, as is the test. He isn’t supposed to be pissed & having a bad day either. I’d like to think I’d _whoosh_ a big wall of water between them & freeze it solid, but the truth is that I’d probably carve a trench 50 feet in back of the scouts on point of the Kill-em-all Army & heat ground in front runners slowly into some newly-formed lava. If they were really jerks, maybe I’d cool it half-way through & let the rest wonder at the screaming stump-men in front of them. And let them wonder if they really still wanted to be around when I got into the mood to start ‘carving pumpkins’ for Halloween. I’m Really slow to anger, but when I _have_ to put people down, its just once, and so they don’t get up. Ever. Closed coffin style? Well, its not like there aren’t Hefty bags in this world… ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/32 "2013-10-08T01:41:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > If the pacifists genuinely believe that they would be disgraced by being protected violently, is not Bob acting in a high-handed and unethical fashion by ignoring their stated wishes? No. Bob is performing a public service by eliminating rabid animals. Whether certain elements of the public appreciate that service is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Peaton\_of\_peat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecae2f/32.png) [@Peaton\_of\_peat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peaton_of_peat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/33 "2013-10-08T03:48:01Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I didn’t think of mass suicide among the commune when I wrote the scenario, and since Bob didn’t think to ask them what they were doing before flying off, I’m going to say he doesn’t know. As I wrote above, if Bob had had more information (or thought things through) before dropping Paolo & his kids, he’d never have talked to Micah and the elders in the first place. > > Of course those would count as violence, as as if Bob threw boulders at the tanks rather than punching them barehanded. All right, that makes things less fun but it also simplifies them a lot. Bob’s gonna have to kick the Purifiers’ collective ass sooner or later, and his only choices are before they reach the commune and after. If the commune doesn’t die of shame if he fights before, then fighting before is preferable to fighting later, when the commune dies of lasers. As for his liability in violence, that was supposed to be an example of accidental and unanticipated (even unanticipatable) deaths resulting from a non-violent course of action. Sure, you would morally liable if your actions were done with the intention to kill, or even with the certain knowledge that you would kill as a side effect of some other goal, no matter how complex a Rube Goldberg device you set up. But there has to be some level of intentionality where you are no longer culpable for deaths resulting from a causal chain that you took part in. For another example, suppose Bob is going for a walk and throws a half-eaten sardine sandwich into a trash can. The garbageman doesn’t come that evening, and raccoons start going nuts over the sandwich, eventually knocking the can down and starting it rolling down the hill, where it crashes into the mayor, killing her instantly. Morally speaking, I can’t see that as anything other than a tragic accident. Going down the line of intentionality, there’s willful, intentional, reckless, negligent, and accidental killing. Obviously willful and intentional killing are off-limits by the commune’s standards, but if we’re reading each other right then apparently it goes all the way down to accidental. I guess that leaves me with Plan A: Beat the shit out of the Purifiers, and if any of them die, them’s the breaks. Just to be nice though, he’d might as well not go out of his way to kill bad guys. Incapacitating a mecha by knocking it down in the middle of a crowd of footmen (reckless killing) is fine, but aiming it so it squashes as many people as possible (willful killing) is not. Disabling a tank by making it explode (intentional killing) is also off the table. Anything less than reckless isn’t something that should even be a concern when you’re in the middle of a pitched battle. As for why Bob’s morality has a higher priority than the villagers’, well, he’s the one doing the ethically-relevant actions. Let’s face it, we and Bob are Americans and we put a very high value on personal autonomy; it’s unimaginable that somebody could be blameworthy for someone else’s actions, so it’s the villagers’ tough luck that they happened across an American who’s going to save them whether they want it or not. Now if Bob were a real asshole, he’d force the commune to adopt his morality rather than just live with it, and he’d do what **Aquadementia** said. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/34 "2013-10-08T03:56:08Z")
So we’ve got a half-arsed demigod stuck between a commune of zealots with no sense of self-preservation and an army of depraved monsters. Why aren’t you screen-writing for Hollywood? The peaceniks are doomed as long as the psychos are alive, even if Captain Nachos somehow manages to disarm them. I think he needs to ignore the wishes of the commune elders and become the Righteous Executioner. They say blood will be on their hands if he kills their attackers to protect them, but as \*\*Miller \*\*said, their blood will be on his hands if he allows them to be slaughtered. The adults in the commune may be willing to die for their ideals, but there are kids in there who haven’t even had a chance to learn what ideals are or to choose their own lives. So screw the wishes of the elders. Now if you remove the kids from the equation, I still think Bob should wipe out the Purifiers, for the sake of every other village. Just tell Mikah’s group that his decision has nothing to do with them. Or, heck, tell 'em that he will bathe the land in the blood of their enemies for their sake, and bring corruption upon them! Then they must crawl through the dust of life as fallen creatures, knowing themselves to be no better than any other human being! . . . (_pant_pant_pant_) . . . Sorry, god delusions coming over me again. Good thing I don’t have super powers. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/35 "2013-10-08T04:16:27Z")
**Peaton (of peat)** that was a remarkably capable analysis and probably will therefore kill the thread. However, I must say that even though I and my equally bloodthirsty superheroine fiancee voted independently for > [@](#): > > Bob should pound the Purifiers into paste. Someone will have to eventually, anyway; why wait? I have, upon further review, come to believe a third option is possible. I mean, come on **Skald** , we’re talking about Byrne-era Superman, right? So, while I agree that he can’t just run around and deflect bullets or melt them (into slag?) nor can he create a huge trench without disrupting the landscape, but what limits are there to someone who can lift anything and fly? I am not as familiar with the mechanics of what Byrne-era Superman could do, but since pinning down the Purifiers to be apprehended by the local authority appears to be an unavailable solution, and since allowing innocents to be harmed is unacceptable to Mr. Exeter, I’d go for a sonic solution where Our Superhero Bob uses his abilities to manipulate sound and air (super-ventriloquism and super-breath) to create a standing wave of energy that not only repels the invaders, but also disables them so that Bob can disarm them and take them into Bob’s custody. Yes, that was a long sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/36 "2013-10-08T04:50:11Z")
Bob should lay the smack down on the Purifiers. The villagers would not be at fault here: they asked Bob not to fight for them. If he chooses to fight, it’s not their moral responsibility, they can no more control Bob than they can control the Purifiers. Bob is doing what his conscience demands, it’s sad that the villagers have no instinct for self-preservation, but perhaps they will develop one down the road. Or be eaten by hyenas. Who knows? The Purifiers: pycho murderers. The world is better off with them imprisoned or dead. Best of all possible! ---
**Author:** ![Peaton\_of\_peat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecae2f/32.png) [@Peaton\_of\_peat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peaton_of_peat)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/37 "2013-10-08T05:08:41Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > **Peaton (of peat)** that was a remarkably capable analysis and probably will therefore kill the thread. Thing is, there’s a lot of fun stuff that gets cut out if any death whatsoever is tantamount to murder. Making a wall out of tanks by turning them on their sides would be a great way to incapacitate the tanks and potentially even imprison the footmen, but there’s no accounting for the chance that the tanks might fall over and land on someone, or maybe the design of their gas tanks makes them catch on fire if they’re not facing the right way. Even more fun would be to fight in the middle of a crowd and get them to fire on each other! That way Bob could explain to the villagers, “I didn’t kill them, it was their own ruthless ways that did them in!” That’s around reckless or intentional killing though, depending on how exactly you go about it, so it’s not going to satisfy the pacifists. It would be fun to probe the line and figure out which side of the fuzzy part to land on, but since it doesn’t really matter to the villagers I’ll just have to daydream about punching those tanks not quite hard enough that they explode… and then the crew crawls out the hatch, and suddenly the tank explodes! Kablooie! The crew is thrown fifty feet through the air but they land in a fortuitous pond and crawl out, stunned and embarrassed but unharmed. They know they’ve been outclassed and will never fight again. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/38 "2013-10-08T05:46:51Z")
Fascinating. Star Trek the original series[\*\* handled this\*\*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organian) 46 years ago. Don’t be surprised to discover that the Sons of Nunuku-whenua reveal themselves to be pure-energy super beings who, after disguising themselves as mortals and gobs of noblesse oblige, with a snap of a synapse force both sides to bugger off. ---
**Author:** ![Not\_Carlson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc79bd/32.png) [@Not\_Carlson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Not_Carlson)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/39 "2013-10-08T05:47:38Z")
Damn. Meant to vote for the cheese cake. Too late now. ---
**Author:** ![Atomic\_Alex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atomic_alex/32/175_2.png) [@Atomic\_Alex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atomic_Alex)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598/40 "2013-10-08T06:26:40Z")
> [@Peaton\_of\_peat](#): > > Let’s face it, we and Bob are Americans and we put a very high value on personal autonomy We are?!? Personally I’m from Northern Ireland and I put a very high value on blowing things up. I really shouldn’t have said that, should I? > [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > I’m supposed to be the nice guy here. The super hero isn’t supposed to figure out that the example is for him, as is the test. He isn’t supposed to be pissed & having a bad day either. Nice guy doesn’t equal milquetoast, you can lay down some righteous wrath and destruction and still be a good person. I do though agree that if possible a lower level of force should be used, the OP specifies that these options won’t work though and the army of doom is at the very gates. As I said above, they know who you are and they know your capabilities, you’ve given them fair warning, if they keep advancing and you’re all that stands between them and the bloody destruction of innocents? Well punches, they aren’t going to be pulled. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slacker-superhero-has-a-pacifist-problem/670598.md?page=3)