# The slaughter of WWI...America's fault?!? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631 "2007-07-30T00:49:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/41 "2007-07-30T19:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] [Haskell County, Kansas, specifically.](http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/2/1/3) It was called the Spanish Flu because Spain was neutral and its newspapers could discuss what was [a military secret elsewhere.](http://zope06.v.servelocity.net/hjs/sections/governance/document.2006-03-02.2174593475) [/QUOTE] I highly reccomend the author of that link’s book, [The Great Influenza](http://www.amazon.com/Great-Influenza-deadliest-pandemic-history/dp/0143036491/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-7982423-5202068?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185823696&sr=8-1) to anyone interested in the 1917-1918 flu pandemic. The stupidity of the Philadelphia comissioner of health is easily a match for any stupidy on the battlefield in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/42 "2007-07-30T20:28:24Z")
[QUOTE=Incensed] From Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > During the American Civil War, the Union was the first to field a submarine. The French-designed Alligator . . . was lost in a storm off Cape Hatteras on April 1, 1863 while **uncrewed and under tow to its first combat deployment** at Charleston. [/QUOTE] [Quote=tomndebb] What submarine was ever **used** by Federal forces during the Civil War? The only submarine that I recall **being employed** effectively was the CSS Hunley, of local (Southern) design and I recall no U.S. Submarines, at all. [/quote] Thanks. That is a corner of history I had not encountered, although since it was utterly lost before it was ever used, I can see how I might have missed it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/43 "2007-07-30T20:44:01Z")
I wonder if it was ever found. I know the CSS Hunley was eventually found and recovered. I think its in a museum now in fact (or its still in the process of being conserved/restored…don’t recall which). -XT ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/44 "2007-07-30T21:53:14Z")
Going back further, [Bushnell’s _Turtle_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_%28submarine%29) was the first sub used operationally and it was another American invention. And William Gardner, of Toledo, OH, invented a cranked machine gun that the Royal Navy adopted nearly a decade before the Maxim. And though the company founded by Connecticut-born Benjamin Hotchkiss made machine guns for the Great War, they were designed by his French designers. But Americans were not the only early machine gun designers. The Swedish Nordenfelt Gun was patented in 1873. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/45 "2007-07-30T22:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] I wonder if it was ever found. I know the CSS Hunley was eventually found and recovered. I think its in a museum now in fact (or its still in the process of being conserved/restored…don’t recall which). -XT [/QUOTE] Here’s a [link](http://www.hunley.org/) to the organization that’s currently supporting the restoration of the Hunley. Apparantly you can tour the site on the weekends, now. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/46 "2007-07-30T23:20:25Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Here’s a [link](http://www.hunley.org/) to the organization that’s currently supporting the restoration of the Hunley. Apparantly you can tour the site on the weekends, now. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the link. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/47 "2007-07-30T23:44:06Z")
Er… (looks up to post #38) Oh. Umm… Well… Oops? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/48 "2007-07-31T00:07:24Z")
[QUOTE=OtakuLoki] Oops? [/QUOTE] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/49 "2007-07-31T03:49:34Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] My friend’s rational was as follows: Many of the most destructive weapons used during WWI including the machine gun, air plane, submarine, barbed wire (and a few more that I don’t now recall…it was a LOT of good scotch) were invented in the US and sold, stolen or simply developed by the Europeans before the war. In addition by the US remaining neutral instead of coming in on one side or the other drew out the slaughter much longer than it had to be…and left it until all sides were exhausted and devastated before we trotted in to finish things off. Also, we didn’t properly support the allies after the war, which lead (somehow…not clear on this point) to WWII…but thats another rant. [/QUOTE] Soooooo. The people you’ve chosen as friends think we’re thieves who stole technology and then chastised us for not acting as policeman to world because Europeans were in the middle of yet another attempt at total domination. Uh Huh. How many countries in Africa, Europe, South America, Asia and the Mid-East did Europe conquer? You can’t spin a globe and point to something without seeing English, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese Russian or Italian conquest. Who invented that exactly? When the United States was attacked by Japan and Germany we committed the unpardonable sin of turning the defeated countries into economic world powers. And when Germany was divided by Russia (another European country), we spent millions of dollars, risked starting another war, and lost 31 pilots/crew to feed our former enemy. 75% of the pilots involved were Americans who crossed an ocean to help.. And if your friends think we’re supposed to rush over to every European war that happens by you might remind him that the United States was not a world power at the beginning of the war. My father trained with wooden guns and broomsticks because his unit didn’t have any real ones to spare. US troops suffered the greatest casualties in the D-Day invasion defending French soil from Germans. We then repeated the process in the Pacific Theater. I hope your friend continues to enjoy his fine scotch and cigars. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/50 "2007-07-31T04:39:37Z")
[QUOTE=Magiver] And if your friends think we’re supposed to rush over to every European war that happens by you might remind him that the United States was not a world power at the beginning of the war. My father trained with wooden guns and broomsticks because his unit didn’t have any real ones to spare. . [/QUOTE] The USA was a World Power as of the end of WWI, if not sooner. Note the Washington Naval Treaty (wiki): \*In the aftermath of World War I the British Empire had the world’s largest and most powerful navy, followed closely by the United States and more distantly by Japan. All three embarked upon large programs of new capital ships (battleships and battlecruisers). In 1920, the United States had declared an aim to produce a navy “second to none”, and had already laid down keels for five battleships and four battlecruisers. Japan was at the start of an 8:8 program (eight battleships and eight battlecruisers). In early 1921 the British finalized the design and ordered four very large battlecruisers (G3 battlecruiser) with plans for four matching battleships (N3 battleship) to follow. This burst of capital ship construction kindled fears of a new naval arms race, similar to the Anglo-German Dreadnought race leading up to World War I. At the time, the United States’ economic power was considerably greater than its potential rivals. Its Gross Domestic Product was approximately three times larger than the United Kingdom (although here the terms United Kingdom and British Empire are not synonymous) and six times larger than Japan. While the United States had the economic wherewithal to outbuild the other maritime powers, rising isolationism meant that domestic political support for such an ambitious program was lacking. The Japanese and British Empires were linked by the Anglo-Japanese Alliance which included mutual defense. \* The ratio was the famous “5:5:3” which gave the USA equal naval power with GB. The USA thus had a powerful world class navy. However, the Navy and the Isolationists had convinced Congress that the USA did not need much of an army, as no one could attack us- due to said navy. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/51 "2007-07-31T08:32:20Z")
[QUOTE=Incensed] [Noob question] How does one present a link without the address of the website appearing? [/Noob question] [/QUOTE] {url=[story](http://www.navyandmarine.org/alligator/story.htm)}Alligator{/url}, replacing the curly brackets with square ones, gives you [Alligator](http://www.navyandmarine.org/alligator/story.htm). ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/52 "2007-07-31T08:53:28Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] It was the stupid tactics such as those used by Field Marshal Haig (‘Ah, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of our trenches and walking very slowly towards the enemy, sir?’) that caused a lot of the casualties [/QUOTE] Wasn’t that debunked? The idea being that to run from your trench to the enemy lines, with all your kit, would leave you exhausted. Anyone in the opposing trenches should have been despatched by your artillery. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/53 "2007-07-31T13:21:29Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] Nor did the United States have any major arms industry in 1914. [/QUOTE] Where did you get this impression from? Arms had been a major US industry since before the Cvil War. In fact, many of the most important innovations in arms manufacture had occured in the US. With regards to WWI, in one example off the top of my head, many of the German U-Boats that eventually pulled the US into the war were built in the United States by the Electric Boat company in New London, CT. The Germans had to buy them from the U.S. because at the beginning of the war they had no capability to build submarines on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Incensed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Incensed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incensed)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/54 "2007-07-31T13:40:07Z")
**tomndebb** –given the slightly different wordings of our respective posts, I thought we were destined to miss each other. The _Alligator_ was ‘workable’, but was never ‘employed effectively’. It sank in a violent storm, BTW-not as though it just went down due to poor design (althought that probably played a role as well). **Malacandra** –thanks for the technical guidance. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/55 "2007-07-31T13:49:58Z")
If the USA hadn’t entered the war as a combatant, then (most likely), the allies and germany would have had to have an armistice. Both sides had been bled white, and germany was on the brink of famine (British blocade). Had the war (sans USA) gone on, into 1919, probably allied and german governments would have fallen, due to the spread of communist anti-war factions. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/56 "2007-07-31T13:52:19Z")
The Allies and Germany did end up with an Armistice, despite the USA’s entrance. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/57 "2007-07-31T13:55:47Z")
[QUOTE=villa] The Allies and Germany did end up with an Armistice, despite the USA’s entrance. [/QUOTE] Not exactly. I think the preceding poster was suggesting it would have come to some sort of truce. Germany would probably have kept its eastern conquests if not the western ones. Hostorically, of course, they lost everything and then some. This may be optimistic (for Germany) but isn’t particularly unrealistic. The western powers made some advances but were pretty well exhausted, too. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/58 "2007-07-31T14:00:41Z")
I think it is overly optimistic for Germany. It also assumes that the situation in the East would have remained the same. Absent Western powers intervening, what would have happened in Russia? The Soviet government never intended to leave the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk to be a permanent solution. I have little doubt the Eastern front would have been reopened in this situation, and Germany was effectively bled dry, as well as facing, as mentioned, internal starvation and massive domestic discontent. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/59 "2007-07-31T14:16:04Z")
[QUOTE=Pushkin] Wasn’t that debunked? The idea being that to run from your trench to the enemy lines, with all your kit, would leave you exhausted. Anyone in the opposing trenches should have been despatched by your artillery. [/QUOTE] Yet they continued to use that tactic, though it didn’t work much better in 1918 than it had in 1914. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631/60 "2007-07-31T14:21:26Z")
It didn’t work much better? It got a lot better with improvements in artillery (see, e.g. Vimy Ridge). What were the alternatives for the Allied forces in 1915-1917? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-slaughter-of-wwi-americas-fault/413631.md?page=4)