# The social views of Muslims **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371 "2011-11-09T05:31:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/21 "2011-11-09T11:41:45Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > The OP is not trying to assert anything\*, and he’s not looking to poll the SDMB either. He’s asking if anyone has references to well designed polls carried out by those academics or whoever with the expertise to do just such studies as **Naxos** is misguidedly chiding him for not consulting experts’ research on. > > (\*: Or, rather, like all human beings, he has motivations in mind for a request like this which likely will involve him being able to support future assertions of some kind. But he’s certainly not trying to assert what a number of you clearly think he is trying to assert… (consider “it shouldn’t be a question that interests anyone”)) I’m not even completely sure what these guys think I’m trying to assert. This thread went weird fast. I’m kind of petulantly refusing to clarify my intentions because _they shouldn’t be in question._.\* Doesn’t anyone here know me at all? ☹ Even aside from who I am in particular, as you said, the OP is perfectly damn clear. \*I am not sure how much significance (if any) to give the fact that this so strongly echoes the comment you mentioned from my OP. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/22 "2011-11-09T11:49:54Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > But the OP confirms that he has a “hidden agenda”, so to speak, when he says of his first question that “I’m just trying to find a way to say ‘terrorism is okay’ without using the word ‘terrorism’.” > > He’s presuming, then, that everyone who beleives that bombing civilians is a legitimate means for the advancement of political or religious interests can fairly be represented as believing that “terrorism is OK”. Perhaps they can, but this involves characterising Americans who would justify, say, the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - very clearly the bombing of civilians for the advancement of political interests - as believing that “terrorism is OK”. > > In other words, the OP is adopting a rather broad interpretation of “terrorism” for the purpose of characterising Muslims as supporting or justifying terrorism. Would he adopt a similarly broad interpretation when considering non-Muslims? Whatever the answer to that question, it seems to me that at the very least these points are worth unpacking. See my prior post–it responds to what you’re saying as well. My expectation is that only a small minority of muslims would answer in the affirmative to any of the three questions from my OP, assuming the first one were sufficiently clarified. My expectation is that in the US the percentages would be even smaller, of course. I’m wondering about this because I’m dealing with a person IRL who thinks muslims broadly and generally support the three positions listed, and I think he is kind of immoral for thinking this. But I should have facts at hand before making the argument. I am dumbfounded that anyone could have thought the negation of any of the above to be true just from reading my OP. But I’ve learned through harsh experience that _people don’t know how to read._. People very often have a peculiar inability to just read what’s on the page and understand it for what it is, and they often engage in bizarrely fantastic acts of mind-reading, especially when the subject matter is at all controversial. This would be understandable in other forums and for unclearly written OPs. Neither of these applies here. Still, knowing this about people, I should have just stated outright what my intentions were from the beginning, but it honestly didn’t occur to me that I’d need to. Why would anyone think, when I’m asking “what percentage of X’s believe Y?”, that there’d be any reason, _IN GENERAL QUESTIONS fer chrissakes_, to say anything other than “Here’s a link to some research on the subject.” Maybe a bit of “can you clarify this question” but the mind-reading and aspersions are completely wrongheaded and unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/23 "2011-11-09T11:51:12Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > 1. Yes. Bomb, gas, crucify, chop up with blunt butter knives. > > 2. Execution is too good. I say they should be fixed of their affliction, preferably by therapy consisting of two parts, the first full on hetro sex, whether they want to or not (especially effective when not), then intense homo sex (ditto). > > 3. Oh yes yes yes. And why stop at these three. I say obedient to sons, son-in-laws, brother-in-law, their own male servants, the pimply little teen next door. They should also be beaten twice a day to ensure docility/reinforce male superiority. Am I hallucinating? Do I not see ‘General Questions’ at the top of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/24 "2011-11-09T14:16:49Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Am I hallucinating? Do I not see ‘General Questions’ at the top of this thread? You do. And yet you still posted this thread in it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/25 "2011-11-09T14:24:24Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > You do. And yet you still posted this thread in it. Two people in this thread have been able to give a GQ-appropriate answer to my question. The fact that this was possible proves that the question was GQ-appropriate. There shouldn’t have been any question of its GQ-appropriateness even before the answers were given. The OP’s GQ-nature speaks for itself. Whatever you’re hearing that makes you think it’s not GQ-appropriate is not coming from the OP. Those voices have a different source… ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/26 "2011-11-09T14:32:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’d be interested to see “The social views of Christians” and “The social views of Jews” for comparison. And “The social views of atheists/agnostics” to boot. That could be interesting. Since several people have done a spectacularly disappointing and ill-motivated job of reading my mind, I’ll plainly speak my mind on this particular issue. This is not really GQ-appropriate, but then, neither is almost anything anyone else has said in the thread despite the clear GQ-appropriateness of the OP. So, my mind says the following regarding what you just said: I don’t know about worldwide, but I suspect that in the US, a greater percentage of Christians would affirm statements like 1 and 3 than would Muslims. I’m not sure about statement 2. I also have very little confidence that I’m right about this. I do think that if you take generational demographics into account, the effect will be more pronounced–second and third generation muslims in the US are far less likely, _I suspect_, to agree with 1 and 3 than are Christians in general in the US. This is pure speculation on my part. _Seeing the research could be revealing. I do not take my speculation seriously. I am not here to speculate._. But since people seem interested in my speculations for some reason, there they are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/27 "2011-11-09T14:54:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’d be interested to see “The social views of Christians” and “The social views of Jews” for comparison. And “The social views of atheists/agnostics” to boot. If only there were a message board out there with a forum where someone could pose such questions… ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/28 "2011-11-09T15:12:29Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Well, I’m just trying to find a way to say “terrorism is okay” without using the word “terrorism.” A big problem is the terminology. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. For example, if you were a member of the Maquis in France during World War II, you wouldn’t consider yourself a terrorist. But the Vichy government would. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/29 "2011-11-09T15:22:17Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > A big problem is the terminology. One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. For example, if you were a member of the Maquis in France during World War II, you wouldn’t consider yourself a terrorist. But the Vichy government would. Exactly. That’s why I was searching for a way not to use the word “terrorism.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/30 "2011-11-09T15:58:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Exactly. That’s why I was searching for a way not to use the word “terrorism.” “Kill civilians” or “deliberately target civilians” is what you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Aeris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Aeris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeris)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/31 "2011-11-09T16:16:12Z")
I was able to find polls for the homosexuality question and the violence question but nothing about how they feel women should be treated. Did anyone else have any luck? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/32 "2011-11-09T16:20:12Z")
I’ve discussed #2 on these boards before. What’'s strange and interesting is that Muslim attitudes toward homosexuality are much more complicated than you’d think. If you go by the book, Islam strictly forbids homosexuality, and calls for the execution of men who engage in it. And as we’ve seen, Middle Eastern leaders will insist publicly that there AREN’T any homosexuals in their countries. But as a practical matter, male homosexual activity is EXTREMELY common in the Muslim world, and in many places it’s not only tolerated, its winked at and even tacitly ENCOURAGED! Google the words “Afghanistan” and “Dancing boys” to get just a sample of what I’m talking about. When a gay man IS arrested and executed for this “crime,” it’s often a safe bet that either he was either extremely indiscreet or is actaully being punished for something else. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/33 "2011-11-09T16:21:10Z")
> [@Aeris](#): > > I was able to find polls for the homosexuality question and the violence question but nothing about how they feel women should be treated. Did anyone else have any luck? I’m getting a ‘Search for ‘muslim and women’ found 0 questions’ on clicking the above links. Anybody else have better luck? ETA: And now I find that Aeris edited the links away and I didn’t notice. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/34 "2011-11-09T16:23:41Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > No clue what your point is, and you seem to intend not to elaborate. (I asked you what presumptions you think I have, and where you thought I wanted the numbers to be sourced, and you answered neither question, instead giving me another mysterious aphorism.) Have fun with that. > > I’m just trying to find out where such percentages, reliably measured, might be found. I’m not hung up on the exact wording of the questions. I’m just looking for stuff in their general area. You can use the same methodology that you’d use for Christians. Take the average Bible belt Christian, add the views of a Unitarian from the northeast, divide by the number of “social Catholics” who don’t go to mass but still identify as Catholic, and then factor in that everyone in Lake Wobegon is above average. That’ll give you a pretty good idea of the average Christian. Of course the views of a Shhite in Indonesia and a Sunni in Detroit will be much more similar than a Southern Baptist and a regular Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/35 "2011-11-09T16:34:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If only there were a message board out there with a forum where someone could pose such questions… I meant as a comparison. Saying that 40% (or whatever) of Muslims think homosexuality is icky is meaningless in terms of understanding Islam if 40% of Christians and Jews and everybody else also think it’s icky. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/36 "2011-11-09T17:38:10Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > On the other hand it seems as though there are an awful lot of _ **Muslims** _ who don’t have a problem with terrorist activities. Couldn’t you replace that word with pretty much _any_ human group name and still keep it a true statement? An “awful lot” (depending on what you mean by that) of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and Hindus would perfectly fit that sentence, if you’re just sticking to religions. You could even put in atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/37 "2011-11-09T18:26:21Z")
[moderating] Instead of issuing warnings or mod notes to half the participants in this thread, I’m simply going to move it to Great Debates and let it continue down the path it’s already taking. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/38 "2011-11-09T23:32:34Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > 1. Bombing civilians is a legitimate means for the advancement of political or religious interests. Pretty much every nation believes this, including the governments of the United States, France, Germany, and the U.K. But why just bombing? You can also shoot them. Or stab them with a sharp implement. Whatever gets the job done. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/39 "2011-11-09T23:55:51Z")
> [@Surreal](#): > > Just under half of Muslims living in western countries agree that “there may be certain circumstances where terrorism is justified”: > > [Inductivist: Almost half of Muslims say terrorism may be justified](http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2010/12/almost-half-of-muslims-say-terrorism.html) From that link: “(Warning: there are only 21 Muslims in the sample).” Okay, so their sample is only 21 people, which is meaningless. And the cite claims 46.2% of Muslims say terrorism is sometimes acceptable - a ludicrous and irresponsible thing to say when your sample’s only 21 people. **But there isn’t any whole number that is 46.2% of 21.** So these people are not good with numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371/40 "2011-11-10T00:01:46Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And the cite claims 46.2% of Muslims say terrorism is sometimes acceptable - a ludicrous and irresponsible thing to say when your sample’s only 21 people. **But there isn’t any whole number that is 46.2% of 21.** So these people are not good with numbers. One of them just sorta kinda believes it, so they only counted him as 0.7 for statistical purposes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-social-views-of-muslims/602371.md?page=3)