# the solution to 90% of police shootings **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324 "2016-07-07T18:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/81 "2016-07-08T18:25:47Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Then explain to me why the Bundys were treated so completely differently. The majority of the Bundy affair is in no way comparable to a point-blank encounter between one/two officers and one armed civilian. It would not have been prudent for local police to engage in a large-scale gun battle with scores of heavily armed people, as that’s not what they’re trained for and it would likely result in heavy casualties on both sides. Ask Lavoy Finnicum what happened when a situation arose that _was_ comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/82 "2016-07-08T18:26:19Z")
Don’t argue this with Smapti. There’s an entire ridiculously long thread in the Pit where he basically says that every police shooting is justified and not a one of them has ever done anything wrong. It isn’t going to go anywhere, so let’s not continue that discussion here, outside of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/83 "2016-07-08T18:28:21Z")
Even a black lives matter protest leader realized the reality when he went through police use of force training and changes his tune to match the OP. [Activist critical of police undergoes use of force scenarios | FOX 10 News - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g) ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/84 "2016-07-08T18:31:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The shooting of Rice was unfortunate but justified. All the officers knew was that a suspect had been seen brandishing a weapon in the park. The security footage shows that Rice appeared to reach for the weapon in his waistband as the officers approached. We’ll never know what was going through Rice’s mind, but the officers at that time had no way of knowing it was a toy and every reason to believe their lives were in danger. If the cops had had more information the shooting could’ve been avoided, but they acted on the assumption that if the gun was real and they _didn’t_ shoot that they’d be the ones leaving in a body bag. > > Unnecess ary accident, but the police were not in the wrong. > > Much like the Rice affair; unnecessary, but likely justifiable. In both cases, the victim was known to be armed, and the shooter had reason to believe he was in a him-or-me situation. Utter bullshit. Maybe if only one of those happened, it might just be an unfortuante event. But it keeps happening, in much greater numbers to black people. Just looking at Garner: Selling loosies and resisting arrest is not a good reason to suffocate a guy. Those cops’ lives weren’t at risk when he swatted a hand. Choke holds aren’t a good example of de-escalation. But let’s keep blaming the dead people, and plastering Facebook and the cable news with their misdemeaners and irrelevant info about their family life to make white people feel better about their murders. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/85 "2016-07-08T18:36:04Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Just looking at Garner: Selling loosies and resisting arrest is not a good reason to suffocate a guy. Those cops’ lives weren’t at risk when he swatted a hand. Choke holds aren’t a good example of de-escalation. So when Garner resisted arrest, the officers should have done what? Let him go? Said “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize not getting arrested was so important to you, see you next week”? They used an unarmed submission technique which wouldn’t have killed anyone who wasn’t morbidly obese and severely ill. > [@](#): > > and plastering Facebook and the cable news with their misdemeaners and irrelevant info about their family life to make white people feel better about their murders. Their misdemeanors and family life are irrelevant. Also, none of them were “murdered”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/86 "2016-07-08T18:38:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Much like the Rice affair; unnecessary, but likely justifiable. In both cases, the victim was known to be armed, and the shooter had reason to believe he was in a him-or-me situation. What evidence do you have that Castile did anything to threaten the officer? ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/87 "2016-07-08T18:39:35Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > If these killings don’t scare the fucking shit out of you and make you worry for your own well-being or someone in your family’s well-being, you’re a privileged m.f. I fall in that camp. I’m aware of that, and because of that I would never presume to tell black folks (because lets face it, they’re the ones being disproportionally killed by cops right now) what \*they’re \*doing wrong. > > No one should be executed on site for resisting arrest. No one should be executed on site for demanding to know why they’re being forced to the ground. No one should be executed on site for a broken tail light and announcing there’s a legal firearm in the car. No one should be executed on site for fighting a cop. A police officer’s number one job is self preservation. Any first responder is trained to first ensure their own safety before worrying about anyone else. A police officer is under no obligation to allow himself to be killed because a suspect decides to fight with him. Sure he may win a disproportionate number of fights but even if he can win 90% of the time that means he’ll be dead by the time he arrests his 10th resisting suspect. He has an obligation to himself, his family, his department, and to the public first of all to survive and second to not allow a criminal to win. So he must take every advantage he can in order to ensure his survival. He can’t know when a criminal starts resisting where it will end. Does he have a gun? a knife? some other weapon? The officer has no way of knowing and someone who resists is more likely to be hiding something deadly since the resistor for whatever reason thinks he can win. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/88 "2016-07-08T18:40:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So when Garner resisted arrest, the officers should have done what? Let him go? Said “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize not getting arrested was so important to you, see you next week”? They used an unarmed submission technique which wouldn’t have killed anyone who wasn’t morbidly obese and severely ill. There are options in between choke hold and the ridiculous scenario you present. They weren’t breaking up an armed robbery or hostage situation for pete’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/89 "2016-07-08T18:42:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What evidence do you have that Castile did anything to threaten the officer? [He told the officer he had a pistol on him and then moved when the officer told him not to move.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile#Police_shooting) > [@](#): > > Reynolds said that before Castile was killed, he told Yanez that he was licensed to carry a concealed weapon and had one in the car. Reynolds stated on the video that Yanez "asked him for license and registration. He told him that it was in his wallet, but he had a pistol on him because he’s licensed to carry. The officer said don’t move. As he was putting his hands back up, the officer shot him in the arm four or five times. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/90 "2016-07-08T18:43:49Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Utter bullshit. Maybe if only one of those happened, it might just be an unfortuante event. But it keeps happening, in much greater numbers to black people. You are assuming that non-blacks are equally likely to challenge police as blacks are. Why in the world would you assume that? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/91 "2016-07-08T18:43:53Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > There are options in between choke hold and the ridiculous scenario you present. Please do explain how you would deal with a person who is aggressively resisting arrest if “unarmed use of physical force” is too extreme by which to effect the arrest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/92 "2016-07-08T18:45:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The shooting of Rice was unfortunate but justified. All the officers knew was that a suspect had been seen brandishing a weapon in the park. The security footage shows that Rice appeared to reach for the weapon in his waistband as the officers approached. We’ll never know what was going through Rice’s mind, but the officers at that time had no way of knowing it was a toy and every reason to believe their lives were in danger. If the cops had had more information the shooting could’ve been avoided, but they acted on the assumption that if the gun was real and they _didn’t_ shoot that they’d be the ones leaving in a body bag. Most of this is false; the video doesn’t clearly show Rice reaching for a weapon, and the officers lied in their interviews after the shooting. The officers also had plenty of time to _not_ drive within yards of someone they thought might be armed, and time to verbally engage the child before they rushed out of their car and shot him. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/93 "2016-07-08T18:45:31Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I can’t tell if you’re serious. This either intentionally or unintentionally illustrates what Mike Vargas said about the job of a policeman. I wasn’t being serious with the flaking comment…but yeah just comply… The elephant in the room in all of this is that Americans are over policed for a variety reasons like to generate revenue and to advance the careers of politicians and police executives. Which leads to the other elephant in the room the war on drugs. Come to think of it, there is another elephant in the room, our complete lack of sensible gun control. But, this stuff goes way beyond the regular beat cop. Until these issues get addressed, I fear for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/94 "2016-07-08T18:50:41Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What he stated is a fact (I did the actual googling). Six percent of the people in the United States are black men. Forty percent of the people who get killed by the police in the United States are black men. That’s disproportionate. To go back to the statistic frequently quoted in recent days, per Washington Post, blacks are killed by police at 2.5 times the rate of whites (gender disparity really isn’t at issue). But per relatively recent FBI statistics blacks were arrested at 2.6 times the white rate. The frequency of force used in arrests of blacks is higher per arrest per today’s NYT article, 46 per 1,000 arrests for blacks v 36 per 1,000 for whites. However again FBI data say that the disproportion of arrests is greater for some serious crimes presumably more likely to result in force used in arrests: blacks 6.3 times as likely to be arrested for murder, 8.1 times as likely for robbery. It’s not clear that it’s meaningful to compare the raw figure of force per arrest without considering what the arrests are for. There is clearly a racial disparity in crime in the US. It’s not as clear how disproportionate police use of force is for people of different colors in the same situations, statistically, though there have obviously been police shootings of black suspects caught on video which appear unjustified. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fatal-shootings-by-police-surpass-2015s-rate/2016/07/07/81b708f2-3d42-11e6-84e8-1580c7db5275_story.html) [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/study-supports-suspicion-that-police-use-of-force-is-more-likely-for-blacks.html) > **[Race and crime in the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#cite_note-62)** > > In the United States, the relationship between race and crime has been a topic of public controversy and scholarly debate for more than a century. Crime rates vary significantly between racial groups; however, academic research indicates that the over-representation of some racial minorities in the criminal justice system can in part be explained by socioeconomic factors, such as poverty, exposure to poor neighborhoods, poor access to public and early education, and exposure Research also ind... ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/95 "2016-07-08T18:50:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Most of this is false; the video doesn’t clearly show Rice reaching for a weapon [Ahem.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dw0EMLM1XRI) Beginning at 8:25 Rice can clearly be seen to respond to the approaching vehicle by getting up, walking towards it, and reaching for his waist. > [@](#): > > and the officers lied in their interviews after the shooting. “The officers’ statement was factually inaccurate” != “the officers lied”. Memory is a funny thing. > [@](#): > > The officers also had plenty of time to _not_ drive within yards of someone they thought might be armed, and time to verbally engage the child before they rushed out of their car and shot him. Verbally engage him _without_ approaching him, you say? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/96 "2016-07-08T18:54:17Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > What evidence do you have that Castile did anything to threaten the officer? AIUI, the chain of events was something like this: 1. the cop asked for Castile’s license. 2. Castile declared he had a CCW license and was carrying a weapon, _while simultaneously reaching for his license._ 3. The officer, alarmed by Castile’s declaration of armament, then told Castile not to reach for his license at that time. 4. Castile, perhaps confused by the conflicting commands, continued to reach/dig for his wallet. 5. Castile’s declaration of armament, together with his disappearing hand, and his apparent refusal to obey the officer’s most recent command (to not reach for his wallet at that time), was interpreted by the officer to present an immediate threat to his own life, prompting him to shoot. It seems clear to me that Castile never intended to issue any kind of overt or subtle threat, but the sum of his innocent actions was interpreted by the officer to be a threat. I don’t believe this was murder, i.e. an intent to kill with malice aforethought. I believe the officer genuinely feared for his life when he pulled the trigger, but I don’t believe that fear was reasonable. Justice, IMHO, would include a conviction for manslaughter and a sentence of a couple of years in prison. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/97 "2016-07-08T19:01:12Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The let the Police EARN their respect by acting respectably, not like thugs. I think it’s probably a good thing to teach and reinforce to cops NOT to expect to be respected by the population, and not to be offended and butthurt if you’re not. That sort of Eric Cartman-esque “RESPECT MAH AUTHORITAH” attitude on the part of many cops does nobody any good, and merely primes them for unfortunate incidents. Hell, I’m a middle-class white guy and I’ve been lectured by cops about some truly stupid shit having to do with speeding while the cop was behind me. It wasn’t a lecture about “How fucking stupid are you, driving for nearly 2 miles above the speed limit with a cop behind you?” That would have been… you know, valid. Instead, it was a long diatribe about how I’d disrespected him and disrespected the law by extension. :rolleyes: He didn’t really have much to say when I told him that after he didn’t pull me over after the first 20 seconds or so, I figured for the remaining 2-3 minutes that he wasn’t going to pull me over at all. (I was going 35 in a 30, FWIW). That same cop would probably have lost his shit and cuffed me or something had I mouthed off to him. He shouldn’t have had that attitude in the first place- give me the ticket, give me a warning, but don’t make it about disrespect. The second thing I’d concentrate on if I was a police chief would be to lessen the paranoia that so many cops have. I kind of think that a lot of them go into every situation as if someone’s going to whip out a gun or weapon, and when that’s combined with the respect issues above, it sets the stage for a lot of bad stuff to happen. It makes them jumpy and paranoid when there’s no need to be, and some cops take this too far, and shoot people without provocation. I think finally, that the sort of “hard” image and reputation that a lot of young black men try to portray is coming back to bite them, as apparently the cops buy into it as well, and are that much more paranoid when they are dealing with them, or even regular black men not trying to portray an image. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/98 "2016-07-08T19:06:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Please do explain how you would deal with a person who is aggressively resisting arrest if “unarmed use of physical force” is too extreme by which to effect the arrest. Oh, perhaps more verbal communication. Garner said “Don’t touch me” and gave a light swat of the hand and he was immediately pulled down from behind with a prohibited chokehold and ridden like a fucking horse with four cops swarming him. All for _suspicion of selling loosies_. Not even witnessed by them. Not dealing drugs to kids. Not in the midst of robbing a liquor store. Not suspicion of raping a college co-ed. Not threatening the life of the president. Something’s wrong with this picture. And this is just one example. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/99 "2016-07-08T19:12:05Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Something’s wrong with this picture. The “something wrong” is that there are people who think it’s appropriate to swat away a police officer’s hand and tell them “don’t touch me” while they are being arrested for committing a crime. Don’t want the police to jump on your back? Don’t break the law and don’t disrespect the office when you get caught. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/100 "2016-07-08T19:12:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > [He told the officer he had a pistol on him and then moved when the officer told him not to move.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Philando_Castile#Police_shooting) The account of events states Castile was putting his hands up, which is traditionally what a person does to indicate they mean no harm and do not wish to be shot. In the case of Rice, your position is that he should have been shot because he put his hands down. In Castile’s case, he should have been shot because he put his hands up. So, to review; if a black man (or child) lowers his hands it is justifiable to shoot them, but if they raise their hands, it is justifiable to shoot them. I am quite certain that had Castile frozen, you would have blamed him for not obeying the officer’s initial command to put his hands up. Or you would have blamed him for not getting his license. It’s quite obvious that there is no action Castile could have taken for which you would not find the shooting was justifiable. Having been given conflicting commands - he was ordered both to get his license and to not move - the officer was justified in killing Castile irrespective of what he did, since Castile could not, logically, follow both orders. Why, exactly, did Castile have to be shot? There is no evidence he did anything overtly threatening. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=6)