# the solution to 90% of police shootings **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324 "2016-07-07T18:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/101 "2016-07-08T19:20:23Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The account of events states Castile was putting his hands up, which is traditionally what a person does to indicate they mean no harm and do not wish to be shot. It is, however, _the exact opposite_ of what one should do when told “don’t move”. > [@](#): > > In the case of Rice, your position is that he should have been shot because he put his hands down. In Castile’s case, he should have been shot because he put his hands up. False. My position is that in both cases the shooting was justified (do note that “justified” != “should have been”) because the specific circumstances gave the officer reason to believe he was in danger. > [@](#): > > I am quite certain that had Castile frozen, you would have blamed him for not obeying the officer’s initial command to put his hands up. Castile was never ordered to “put his hands up”. > [@](#): > > Having been given conflicting commands - he was ordered both to get his license and to not move There is no conflict. He was asked for his license, he responded that he had a weapon, and he was then told not to move. The second instruction supercedes the first. > [@](#): > > Why, exactly, did Castile have to be shot? He didn’t _have_ to be shot. That does not mean that shooting him was not a justifiable act. > [@](#): > > There is no evidence he did anything overtly threatening. You have had considerably longer to ponder that evidence than the fraction of a second that the officer did, and you did not have the possibility of instant death looming over you while you did so. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/102 "2016-07-08T19:21:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Proposed solution #1: outlaw policing for revenue. Cops should never feel pressured to issue more tickets and fines, which just leads to more conflict and potential for violence. It also disproportionately affects people of color, since cops will issue tickets and fines to those least likely to present any substantial defense. > > Congress should pass a bill requiring that any funds from law-enforcement issued tickets go to some charitable fund or other fund outside of the control of their local government. I’m pretty sure that’s outside of congress’s prevue. Police powers are generally understood to belong to the states. [QUOTE=[http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Police+Power](http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Police+Power)] The authority conferred upon the states by the Tenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and which the states delegate to their political subdivisions to enact measures to preserve and protect the safety, health, Welfare, and morals of the community. Police power describes the basic right of governments to make laws and regulations for the benefit of their communities. Under the system of government in the United States, only states have the right to make laws based on their police power. The lawmaking power of the federal government is limited to the specific grants of power found in the Constitution. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/103 "2016-07-08T19:26:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The “something wrong” is that there are people who think it’s appropriate to swat away a police officer’s hand and tell them “don’t touch me” while they are being arrested for committing a crime. > > Don’t want the police to jump on your back? Don’t break the law and don’t disrespect the office when you get caught. Yeah, and that crime was what again? Standing on the corner? Breaking up a fight? Supposedly selling loosies? Glad that guy’s off the streets now. And that improper choke hold was totally worth it and accomplished something a de-escalating conversation or warning could never accomplish. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/104 "2016-07-08T19:29:11Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > Yeah, and that crime was what again? Doesn’t matter. If you don’t want the cops to get violent with you, _don’t break the law_. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/105 "2016-07-08T19:53:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It is, however, _the exact opposite_ of what one should do when told “don’t move”. > > False. My position is that in both cases the shooting was justified (do note that “justified” != “should have been”) because the specific circumstances gave the officer reason to believe he was in danger. > > Castile was never ordered to “put his hands up”. > > There is no conflict. He was asked for his license, he responded that he had a weapon, and he was then told not to move. The second instruction supercedes the first. > > He didn’t _have_ to be shot. That does not mean that shooting him was not a justifiable act. > > You have had considerably longer to ponder that evidence than the fraction of a second that the officer did, and you did not have the possibility of instant death looming over you while you did so. A police officer is supposed to be trained to properly assess a situation quickly and act accordingly. A civilian, and a black man, is probably a little nervous, not thinking clearly, when a cop pulls him over, especially when a gun is pointed at him. You actually expect this poor guy to perfectly process what he’s being told (possibly yelled) at him in a split second by a cop with a fucking gun pointed at him? Castile was doing what everyone is told to do when they’ve got a legal firearm in their car. Castile probably didn’t think freezing with his hands in the air would get him shot. The cop has the upper hand and the training that shouldn’t lead to Castile being shot multiple times when he never actually showed his gun. You don’t think a young white guy in the car with a young white woman and a four-year-old girl in the back seat would be given the benefit of the doubt in this exact same situation? And not been shot, like four times? > [@Smapti](#): > > Doesn’t matter. If you don’t want the cops to get violent with you, don’t break the law. OK, I think this is where you and I differ. I have the expectation that cops shouldn’t get violent, or kill, even when someone \*does \*break the law. Speeding? Smoking a doobie behind the garage? Teenagers getting loud at a party? Selling loosies on the corner? You mean you think it’s reasonable for police to get violent with these people just because they’re breaking the law? Do you live in a third world country? If you think it’s ok to choke a man to death for \*allegedly \*selling cigarettes on the corner, well, I don’t know what to say to that. I don’t even think it’s ok for police to choke a man who just murdered someone. But that’s just me. I like having laws and rules for the police too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/106 "2016-07-08T19:58:59Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > I’m pretty sure that’s outside of congress’s prevue. Police powers are generally understood to belong to the states. That sucks. Maybe a constitutional amendment. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/107 "2016-07-08T20:02:22Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > A police officer is supposed to be trained to properly assess a situation quickly and act accordingly. A civilian, and a black man, is probably a little nervous, not thinking clearly, when a cop pulls him over, especially when a gun is pointed at him. You actually expect this poor guy to perfectly process what he’s being told (possibly yelled) at him in a split second by a cop with a fucking gun pointed at him? Castile was doing what everyone is told to do when they’ve got a legal firearm in their car. Castile probably didn’t think freezing with his hands in the air would get him shot. The cop has the upper hand and the training that shouldn’t lead to Castile being shot multiple times when he never actually showed his gun. > > You don’t think a young white guy in the car with a young white woman and a four-year-old girl in the back seat would be given the benefit of the doubt in this exact same situation? And not been shot, like four times? > > OK, I think this is where you and I differ. I have the expectation that cops shouldn’t get violent, or kill, even when someone \*does \*break the law. Speeding? Smoking a doobie behind the garage? Teenagers getting loud at a party? Selling loosies on the corner? You mean you think it’s reasonable for police to get violent with these people just because they’re breaking the law? Do you live in a third world country? > > If you think it’s ok to choke a man to death for \*allegedly \*selling cigarettes on the corner, well, I don’t know what to say to that. I don’t even think it’s ok for police to choke a man who just murdered someone. But that’s just me. I like having laws and rules for the police too. Ok, a hypothetical situation… guy is going to be arrested, tells the cop “I’m not going to jail, Don’t touch me” What do you Officer Lenderveddar do? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/108 "2016-07-08T20:13:24Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > You mean you think it’s reasonable for police to get violent with these people just because they’re breaking the law? You know perfectly well the police didn’t get violent with him because he was selling cigarettes on the street. They got violent with him because he began resisting arrest. I know that in your perfect world the police instead should have tried to plead, cajole, finesse, or gently nudge him toward the police station with a padded robotic vehicle (or even better, apologized for taking up his time and gone on their way), but in the real world people can rightfully expect to be overpowered when they begin resisting arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/109 "2016-07-08T20:14:33Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > Ok, a hypothetical situation… guy is going to be arrested, tells the cop “I’m not going to jail, Don’t touch me” What do you Officer Lenderveddar do? In your hypothetical situation, I’ve been trained to deal with such a scenario. In reality, I have not. But I’m pretty sure de-escalation techniques don’t involve improper choke holds. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/110 "2016-07-08T20:17:12Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > You actually expect this poor guy to perfectly process what he’s being told (possibly yelled) at him in a split second by a cop with a fucking gun pointed at him? Yes. If he doesn’t, then _he ceases to exist for all of eternity_. That moment is literally the single most important instant in the entire history of the universe as far as he is concerned. > [@](#): > > Castile probably didn’t think freezing with his hands in the air would get him shot. He didn’t “freeze with his hands in the air”. He moved his hands after being told to freeze. At no point was he told to raise his hands. (BTW; as an experiment, try “putting your hands in the air” while sitting in the driver’s seat of your car.) > [@](#): > > You don’t think a young white guy in the car with a young white woman and a four-year-old girl in the back seat would be given the benefit of the doubt in this exact same situation? And not been shot, like four times? I would expect nothing different from the suspect if they were white, and I would expect no different response from the officer. The skin color of the person who you believe is about to un-make you is irrelevant. > [@](#): > > You mean you think it’s reasonable for police to get violent with these people just because they’re breaking the law? _Yes._ Do you believe resisting arrest is a get-out-of-jail-free-card? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/111 "2016-07-08T20:17:13Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You know perfectly well the police didn’t get violent with him because he was selling cigarettes on the street. They got violent with him because he began resisting arrest. > > I know that in your perfect world the police instead should have tried to plead, cajole, finesse, or gently nudge him toward the police station with a padded robotic vehicle (or even better, apologized for taking up his time and gone on their way), but in the real world people can rightfully expect to be overpowered when they begin resisting arrest. And apparently murdered with choke holds that are prohibited by the department. That’s apparently ok too. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/112 "2016-07-08T20:18:29Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > In your hypothetical situation, I’ve been trained to deal with such a scenario. In reality, I have not. But I’m pretty sure de-escalation techniques don’t involve improper choke holds. So you have no answer, then. Let’s therefore leave the policing to the people whose understanding of how to deal with a hostile reprobate amounts to more than “Well, he says he doesn’t want to go to jail, so I’d better not make him or else he might get mad at me”. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > And apparently murdered with choke holds that are prohibited by the department. That’s apparently ok too. Garner was not “murdered”. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/113 "2016-07-08T20:20:15Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > A police officer’s number one job is self preservation. Any first responder is trained to first ensure their own safety before worrying about anyone else. That’s their number one job? Really? What’s the point in having cops then? We can just use low paid security guards and the military. Security guard to keep the peace, and the military to murder anyone who dares not comply with the security guards since noncompliance is now met with deadly force. The whole point of police duty is that you cannot always ensure your own safety. That’s they they are paid relatively well, and get to retire with great benefits after a couple decades or so. If the number one goal of a cop is to ensure their own safety above all else, they cannot be effective cops. You cannot walk down dark alleys or chase suspects in a car or by foot if you think your own safety is paramount to the duties you are tasked to do. This is why cops who do their jobs well are heroes. They put others ABOVE themselves on a regular basis. I personally don’t think that is that much to ask. People risk and lose their lives nearly nine times as often trying to catch fucking fish. I expect that cops should be okay with taking significant risks to their health and safety even if it comes at the hands of bad people. That doesn’t mean they should have to take beatings from the public, or that they shouldn’t have basic self-defense rights, but rather that self-preservation at all costs is antithetical to police work. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The officer has no way of knowing and someone who resists is more likely to be hiding something deadly since the resistor for whatever reason thinks he can win. But that’s clearly false. Do you really think everyone who arguably resists is hiding something “deadly”? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/114 "2016-07-08T20:23:08Z")
It’s almost comical. I say violence shouldn’t be Tool #1, I’m told it is Tool #2, and then the authoritarians come in here and prove it. \> Issue Orders \> Resort to Violence. How about we move Violence out of the top 5 or top 10 responses, eh? In the hypothetical, since I am trained (but not a cop), I’d smile, laugh, say “yes, you are” and then call for backup. If 3-4 officers don’t convince him that he’s going, he’s got a choice to make, but my response is NOT going to be to take out a nightstick and bash his brains, or shoot him. My job is not to escalate the situation or initiate violence, it is to de-escalate and resolve the situation peacefully if at all possible. And you know, if we have to surround him and do nothing for a few minutes for it to sink into his head that there really is nothing for it but to come along peacefully, then it’s a few minutes well spent. I’m in no hurry and him refusing my orders doesn’t prick my ego the way it seems to do with some of these guys. He’s coming along, period, and I don’t need to wave my dick around, get belligerent or beat him half to death to make that happen. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/115 "2016-07-08T20:24:07Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > In your hypothetical situation, I’ve been trained to deal with such a scenario. In reality, I have not. But I’m pretty sure de-escalation techniques don’t involve improper choke holds. You speak of de-escalation techniques, which basically boil down to “pretty please” but if “pretty please” doesn’t work, then what? I can’t jedi mind trick everyone into handcuffs, I wish I could, but that isn’t the real world. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/116 "2016-07-08T20:26:34Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > That’s their number one job? Really? What’s the point in having cops then? Their job as _human beings_ supercedes their job as civil servants. You cannot compel a person to surrender their fundamental human right to live as a condition of employment. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/117 "2016-07-08T20:26:42Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > And apparently murdered with choke holds that are prohibited by the department. That’s apparently ok too. No, I do not think people resisting arrest can expect to be accidentally killed through the use of choke holds, which, incidentally, were originally intended to provide non-lethal ways of bringing resisting arrestees under control. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/118 "2016-07-08T20:28:18Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > It’s almost comical. I say violence shouldn’t be Tool #1, I’m told it is Tool #2, and then the authoritarians come in here and prove it. > > \> Issue Orders > \> Resort to Violence. > > How about we move Violence out of the top 5 or top 10 responses, eh? > > In the hypothetical, since I am trained (but not a cop), I’d smile, laugh, say “yes, you are” and then call for backup. If 3-4 officers don’t convince him that he’s going, he’s got a choice to make, but my response is NOT going to be to take out a nightstick and bash his brains, or shoot him. My job is not to escalate the situation or initiate violence, it is to de-escalate and resolve the situation peacefully if at all possible. > > And you know, if we have to surround him and do nothing for a few minutes for it to sink into his head that there really is nothing for it but to come along peacefully, then it’s a few minutes well spent. I’m in no hurry and him refusing my orders doesn’t prick my ego the way it seems to do with some of these guys. He’s coming along, period, and I don’t need to wave my dick around, get belligerent or beat him half to death to make that happen. Yes and if him being surrounded and letting it “sink in” doesn’t work, then what? How long do we keep this going, 1 hour? 2 hours? Leave and tell him to turn himself in at his earliest convenience? What? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/119 "2016-07-08T20:28:41Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > You speak of de-escalation techniques, which basically boil down to “pretty please” but if “pretty please” doesn’t work, then what? I can’t jedi mind trick everyone into handcuffs, I wish I could, but that isn’t the real world. No, it doesn’t boil down to that. It boils down to using your mouth as a tool. Psychology, motivation, persuasion, consequences. You shouldn’t be a cop if you dismiss this so easily. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/120 "2016-07-08T20:30:02Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > And you know, if we have to surround him and do nothing for a few minutes for it to sink into his head that there really is nothing for it but to come along peacefully, then it’s a few minutes well spent. I’m in no hurry You’re not? Really? How many other crimes are happening in this city while you sit there with your thumb up your butt saying “I can sit here as long as you can”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=7)