# the solution to 90% of police shootings **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324 "2016-07-07T18:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/141 "2016-07-08T22:10:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “A significant portion of our country’s population” will happily tell you that the president is a Muslim who supports terrorists, that transgender women are perverts hoping to prey on little girls in public bathrooms, and that global warming is a hoax invented by the Chinese in order to impose socialism on America. So you’re comparing people that hold crackpot theories and transphobic opinions to an ethnic minority that is honest-to-God expressing fear for their lives from police? Well, at least I know what I’m dealing with when I see your username now. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/142 "2016-07-08T22:14:55Z")
> [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](#): > > I think part of the problem is that one side of the conversation is talking in “is” and the other side is talking in “ought.” > > Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that police never give orders that are ambiguous or impossible to comply with, and that people who comply never get shot. One side is saying this is the case, or largely the case. > > Perhaps it is. But I’m on the “ought” side and I’m not willing to leave it at that. It gives the police officer the same moral authority as a bank robber: do this or you’ll get shot. Why is this the current relationship between the citizens – or certain subsets of the citizens, since black people are getting shot by the police at something like twice the rate of white people – and the police? Why should it be? Why are we giving people dictatorial powers, even in a small domain, in a democracy? > > Even if you’re on the “is” side yourself, do you understand why some people who are asking “why should I comply?” aren’t accepting “otherwise you’ll get shot” as an answer? Fair enough, but I feel like some of you are treating the street as if it is a court room, which it isn’t, argue your case in a court of law. If you are about to be arrested, you aren’t talking a cop out of it. It’s not do this or get shot…it’s being a sworn law enforcement officer entrusted with the power of arrest. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/143 "2016-07-08T22:17:10Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > I’ll ask you straight out, Do you think cops should ever resort to violence to apprehend someone? You weren’t asking me, but I’ll answer “yes”, there are times where things get physical. However, such situations should be as transparent as possible, so that a solid case can be made to the public. In an era of social media, where information travels so quickly, how we handle these things must change. Police are the ones paid to do a job and if they want to avoid the criticism, they have to build better relationships. They have potential access to more organization, resources and influence to do so, than any single individual or even typical community of people (especially the less affluent ones). That said, I’m more inclined to agree with the reasoning you began to touch on in [post #93](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19463536&postcount=93), as opposed to finding ways in which we can allow police to commit more violence. I’m actually on-board with you, 100% on the items you brought up, and I think it would more easily win the support of people. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/144 "2016-07-08T22:22:23Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Spent five years as a security guard, half of that time armed, without ever being hit. The only time I physically touched someone was to pull a drunk off another guy’s back because he was choking him out. > > I walked calmly into a fight between a table full of football players beating the hell out of each other, quietly said “Ok, we’re done now” and the fight ended. Period. Not another punch of bad word said. > > I deterred several people who threatened me physically simply by smiling and calmly talking to them with a confidence and lack of escalation that completely threw them off and stopped the nonsense I was sent to stop in the first place. > > I walked people out doors while they ranted endlessly and made threats. Nothing happened. Why? Because I was calm, unflappable and never took the bait. > > As an armed guard, I drew my weapon exactly twice, but never pointed it at anyone or screamed threats. The first time was five homeless guys jumping all over my truck and pulling on the doors. I drew me weapon and held it up, with a calm look on my face. They decided they’d had enough fun and left. The second time two guys were trying to sneak up behind my partner and walking past my truck door. One of the guys saw the gun in my hand (again, pointed up) and my other hand on the door, and got spooked. They made excuses and then ran away. > > I stood next to a court clerk while his co-workers ran for cover and the county sheriffs and deputies rallied outside the door preparing to come in and take down a guy screaming and threatening violence. I just stood there calmly, watching him. The clerk later thanked me for ‘saving’ his life and expressed his respect for my calm demeanor in the face of a maniac. > > I have a black belt in Karate and a belt in Aikido. I’m familiar with other styles. I’ve never had to use them, because my brain and my mouth are my top 2 weapons in any situation. > > If you can’t do these things as a police officer, you should not be one. You’re speaking in absolutes again, those things will never will 100 percent of the time. At some point you have to act. ---
**Author:** ![LeaveMeAlone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@LeaveMeAlone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LeaveMeAlone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/145 "2016-07-08T22:33:39Z")
> [@Krouget](#): > > You weren’t asking me, but I’ll answer “yes”, there are times where things get physical. However, such situations should be as transparent as possible, so that a solid case can be made to the public. In an era of social media, where information travels so quickly, how we handle these things must change. Police are the ones paid to do a job and if they want to avoid the criticism, they have to build better relationships. They have potential access to more organization, resources and influence to do so, than any single individual or even typical community of people (especially the less affluent ones). > > That said, I’m more inclined to agree with the reasoning you began to touch on in [post #93](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19463536&postcount=93), as opposed to finding ways in which we can allow police to commit more violence. I’m actually on-board with you, 100% on the items you brought up, and I think it would more easily win the support of people. I agree, I’d also like to add that the fact that some departments are still committed to using quotas for measuring job performance (which 100 percent exist) which creates a horrible atmosphere for dealing with the public. I’m a public servant, I never want to feel like I’m preying on members of the public. I’m there to help you guys. But this is the purview of police executives and elected officials. Put yourself in the shoes of a rookie cop, your boss (who is being hounded by his boss) is hounding you for contacts, tickets, or whatever euphemism they use for quotas, if you fail to perform, here comes some crappy assignments, bad job evaluations…and on and on…and eventually your job ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/146 "2016-07-08T22:51:50Z")
Just as an example of what the OP is talking about\*, I was once in a car accident, and I was responsible, because I crossed the yellow line. I was not impaired, except by tiredness, but the cop didn’t know that. My license and insurance card were in the glove box. I wanted to get them out, and the cop who had already approached my car (my window was opened) told me not to. He put his hand on his weapon. So I didn’t show proof of insurance at the scene of the accident, and later got a cite for it in the mail, $80. I had to spend time going to the BMV and showing proof that I’d been insured at the time of the accident, and get a form from them, and then show it to a judge-- I also had to get some paperwork to get a “legend drug” cite dismissed, because I had prescription drugs (bladder medication and an antibiotic) in unlabeled containers, also in the glove box. The cops tossed my car after it was towed, while I was at the hospital getting my forehead stitched, looking for serious drugs or liquor bottles. I had to prove that 1) what the drugs were; and 2) that I had prescriptions for them. The blood test they gave me in the hospital showed I wasn’t impaired. Anyway, if I had gotten into the glove box without the cop giving me verbal permission to, he could have shot me on the assumption that I was going for a weapon. I was woozy, and I think now I should have asked the cop to remove my license and registration himself. That didn’t occur to me at the time. I had a huge hassle, but I did the right thing. Ultimately, it was all my fault for driving tired, something I learned not to do. The cop behaved like a jerk in several ways, nonetheless-- he could have offered to open the glove box, and he may have been thinking more of writing an $80 ticket than that I really had a weapon, but he was well within his rights and training to act on that assumption. **That said, I’m not sure PSAs wouldn’t backfire**. The type of people who are likely to challenge cops are the type who are likely to have the “You can’t tell me what to do” attitude toward PSAs. \*FTR, I am aware that being black in the US puts you at greater risk of being shot or otherwise abused by the police, and that goes all the way down to being told the police have better things to do if you are black and asking for directions, something I’ve witnessed, and just to test, I went up to the same cops (in Manhattan), and found them friendly and willing to help me out. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/147 "2016-07-08T22:53:47Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > I agree, I’d also like to add that the fact that some departments are still committed to using quotas for measuring job performance (which 100 percent exist) which creates a horrible atmosphere for dealing with the public. I’m a public servant, I never want to feel like I’m preying on members of the public. I’m there to help you guys. But this is the purview of police executives and elected officials. Put yourself in the shoes of a rookie cop, your boss (who is being hounded by his boss) is hounding you for contacts, tickets, or whatever euphemism they use for quotas, if you fail to perform, here comes some crappy assignments, bad job evaluations…and on and on…and eventually your job And here again, I believe you. I work with three ex/retired officers, and they’ve quite literally said the same things you have said, here, especially with the quota point. I’ve been told that if there is a known area of activity, and the superior sends an officer out to spend the day there, they _expect to see something for that time_– the end result is some citizen, who on any other day may get a pass, is now going to have a run-in with an officer. If we follow that to its logical conclusion, we can see how over the longer term, such an approach results in tearing communities apart. Layer in some very real social and political factors/agendas and it creates a very bad situation. So yeah, I get what you’re saying and I do believe most cops are good or attempt to do good. My one coworker says when he was tasked with traffic duties, he tried to avoid “shit tickets” and instead focused on enforcement which undeniably boosted safety (red light runners, for example). Unfortunately, while there are officers like him, there are others who either participate or are caught up in very real problems, where a lot of key players in higher roles of authority pull strings. Public outcry is there, but it only goes so far when its so unorganized, fractured, or distracted by the next big news event. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/148 "2016-07-08T23:05:23Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I was woozy, and I think now I should have asked the cop to remove my license and registration himself. That didn’t occur to me at the time. I have zero training in the fine Art of Copdom, but if a victim said that to me, the first thing I would be thinking is “Is there a booby-trap there? And what is he going to do while I am distracted and my hand is tied up?” ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/149 "2016-07-08T23:17:59Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I have zero training in the fine Art of Copdom, but if a victim said that to me, the first thing I would be thinking is “Is there a booby-trap there? And what is he going to do while I am distracted and my hand is tied up?” Well, since I tried to open it myself, since it would have taken some real planning to booby-trap my glove box on the off-chance I got into an accident that disabled my car, and since the cops did in fact get into the glove box as soon as I was gone (I assume it was some kind of “crime scene,” and they didn’t need my permission), I don’t think that occurred to the cop. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/150 "2016-07-08T23:22:56Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > Well, since I tried to open it myself, since it would have taken some real planning to booby-trap my glove box on the off-chance I got into an accident that disabled my car, and since the cops did in fact get into the glove box as soon as I was gone (I assume it was some kind of “crime scene,” and they didn’t need my permission), I don’t think that occurred to the cop. Well, there are old cops, and there are bold cops. But there are no old, bold cops. ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/151 "2016-07-08T23:27:15Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I have zero training in the fine Art of Copdom, but if a victim said that to me, the first thing I would be thinking is “Is there a booby-trap there? And what is he going to do while I am distracted and my hand is tied up?” Was never a cop but I was a soldier. Never open ANYTHING yourself always make the suspect open it. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/152 "2016-07-08T23:31:57Z")
> [@LeaveMeAlone](#): > > You’re speaking in absolutes again, those things will never will 100 percent of the time. At some point you have to act. True, but you’re dealing in absolutes too. I went five years and touched ONE person. And you missed that I did act, when I needed to, HOW I needed to in order to resolve the situation without that ‘need to act’ (with violence, I presume). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/153 "2016-07-08T23:35:06Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I have zero training in the fine Art of Copdom, but if a victim said that to me, the first thing I would be thinking is “Is there a booby-trap there? And what is he going to do while I am distracted and my hand is tied up?” Isn’t this the type of fantastic, worst case scenario thinking that attempts to justify cops overreacting? There is no reason that cop should have reacted that way given the information presented in the comment. What are the chances a guy who just got into an accident is reaching into a glove compartment to get a gun to kill a cop? Basically zero. What sense would that make? You might as well argue that he should have never approached the car because it could have been rigged with explosives. Yes, cops face real life dangers, but they rarely compare to the dangers people in really dangerous jobs like logging and fishing face. It’s not a contest or anything, but we need to stop validating this idea that a cop who cannot see someone hands, or someone reaching into a glove compartment is putting a cop in mortal danger. Cops condition themselves to fear interacting with citizens when more of them are hurt or killed in traffic accidents. It makes no sense, and we should not give credence to irrational fears. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/154 "2016-07-09T00:14:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Yes, cops face real life dangers, but they rarely compare to the dangers people in really dangerous jobs like logging and fishing face. It’s not a contest or anything, but we need to stop validating this idea that a cop who cannot see someone hands, or someone reaching into a glove compartment is putting a cop in mortal danger. Cops condition themselves to fear interacting with citizens when more of them are hurt or killed in traffic accidents. It makes no sense, and we should not give credence to irrational fears. That’s pretty much it. Police Officer is not THE MOST DANGEROUS JOB IN THE WORLD where they face down death every single day. \*\*Perhaps what we really need is to weed out the Nervous Nellys that are so afraid for their lives, yet at the same time don’t seem to have any qualms about taking the lives of their fellow citizens and their pets. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/155 "2016-07-09T00:56:18Z")
> [@drewder](#): > > Was never a cop but I was a soldier. Never open ANYTHING yourself always make the suspect open it. Cops are not soldiers. Actually, I think part of the problem is the militarization of the police. Police refer to other people as “civilians,” but if you ask a soldier, police are civilians. Police are not in a war zone, and shouldn’t behave like they are, or act like soldiers on a mission. No, the problem isn’t former military members as police officers-- I know ex-soldiers who joined police forces, and they knew the difference (for one thing, if there’s ever something about being a police officer you don’t like, you can quit, like any civilian). People who missed out on the military, or couldn’t get in for some reason, but managed to get onto a police force are as bad as pseudo-militia people playing soldier out in the woods. I should add, I’ve known some really good cops who were never in the military. One of my oldest childhood friends is a detective lieutenant in Manhattan. He went to college and majored in Criminal Justice, did one year of law school and dropped out, aced the police academy exam, and has been on one track ever since. My mother is friends with his mother, which is how I still know him. He has never shot anyone. This must be his 26th year as NYPD. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/156 "2016-07-09T04:54:48Z")
I am not sure what the people in this thread who are arguing against the “comply with cops” approach are proposing. If they want to argue that the cops are too nervous or too prone to use force, I can agree. If they want to argue that cops shouldn’t be so militarized, I can see the point. But if they are arguing against the idea that a comply-with-the-cops approach would give the apprehended person a greater chance of survival - well…what’s to disagree with that? Surely, from a statistical standpoint, it’s true? And surely fighting or resisting the cops is statistically/logically more likely to result in dangerous escalation of the situation? Would they prefer that apprehended people \*not \*comply with the cops? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/157 "2016-07-09T10:48:24Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So you’re comparing people that hold crackpot theories and transphobic opinions to an ethnic minority that is honest-to-God expressing fear for their lives from police?. No ethnic group in this country has any logical reason to fear for their lives from police. To assert otherwise _is_ a crackpot theory. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/158 "2016-07-09T10:59:43Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I am not sure what the people in this thread who are arguing against the “comply with cops” approach are proposing. > If they want to argue that the cops are too nervous or too prone to use force, I can agree. > > If they want to argue that cops shouldn’t be so militarized, I can see the point. > > But if they are arguing against the idea that a comply-with-the-cops approach would give the apprehended person a greater chance of survival - well…what’s to disagree with that? Surely, from a statistical standpoint, it’s true? And surely fighting or resisting the cops is statistically/logically more likely to result in dangerous escalation of the situation? > > Would they prefer that apprehended people \*not \*comply with the cops? “Comply with cops” is to police encounter advice as “make a lot of money” is to financial advice. It is fundamentally sound, but easier said than done. Doing so under the circumstances of these shootings and with the background and life experiences of the victims is not the same as doing so when you’re a white guy from a nice suburb who gets pulled over for speeding. If you don’t know why that is the case, you should consider trying to learn more about human behavior, history, trauma, and police practice. Additionally, compliance is not relevant in all cases. There are bigger issues, so focusing on the behavior of the victims seems like an effort to blame them rather than solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/159 "2016-07-09T12:32:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No ethnic group in this country has any logical reason to fear for their lives from police. To assert otherwise _is_ a crackpot theory. Oh goody, some good ol’ fashioned whitesplaining. Tell us more about how other ethnic groups should feel! Ooh ooh, do Indians now! ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/160 "2016-07-09T12:51:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You’re not? Really? > > How many other crimes are happening in this city while you sit there with your thumb up your butt saying “I can sit here as long as you can”? This attitude totally boggles the mind. "We had to shoot the perp; negotiating might have cost an hour of our time. That’s $34 _each plus benefits_. **Someone has to think of the taxpayers**. “Obviously once we decided to shoot, we emptied our magazines into the perp’s center of mass — that’s just protocol.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=9)