# the solution to 90% of police shootings **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 7, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324 "2016-07-07T18:54:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/161 "2016-07-09T12:58:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I ask you again; somewhere in this city, a woman is frantically calling for help because her drug-addicted husband has his gun out and is threatening to kill himself and the children if she leaves him. Two blocks over, an informant is watching a man is selling his 10-year-old daughter’s body to pay for his crack habit. A few miles down the road from that, a 17-year-old in a fast food restaurant furtively hits the silent alarm button as a group of armed men force them to open the tills before hustling them into the back room and ordering them to kneel with their backs turned. > > Exactly how many minutes do you have to sit there babysitting the guy who’s telling you not to touch him because he doesn’t want to go to jail? :smack: Make up your minds. Yesterday in this or another thread one of the advocates for Cops-Who-Kill claimed that cops lack the skill for nonlethal force because they spend all day writing tickets for broken tail-lights, and need to use their weapon only once a decade or so. Now you’re pretending Joe the Cop handles three major felonies before breakfast, eats a can of spinach and races off to handle three more. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/162 "2016-07-09T13:00:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No ethnic group in this country has any logical reason to fear for their lives from police. To assert otherwise _is_ a crackpot theory. The fact that black people are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of unjustified police violence, up to and including deliberate murder, would indicate otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/163 "2016-07-09T13:16:29Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I am not sure what the people in this thread who are arguing against the “comply with cops” approach are proposing… > But if they are arguing against the idea that a comply-with-the-cops approach would give the apprehended person a greater chance of survival - well…what’s to disagree with that? Surely, from a statistical standpoint, it’s true? And surely fighting or resisting the cops is statistically/logically more likely to result in dangerous escalation of the situation? > > Would they prefer that apprehended people \*not \*comply with the cops? :smack: If you’re speaking of me, I never argued against comply-with-cops. To the contrary, this advice is so obvious as to be trite and I thought OP was worth only sarcasm. _Of course_ you comply with cops … or risk your life. (Can you point to anyone arguing otherwise?) And 2+2=4; do we need a thread about that also? Philando Castile was complying with cop orders when he reached for his ID. Is your comment directed at him? Tamir Rice complied with no police orders because no orders were given to him. Is your comment directed at him? Sober intelligent middle-class whites with no criminal history do not experience life the same way as down-at-heels persons who might be emotionally agitated, drunk, in need of psychiatric help, and _ **are certainly in need of sympathy** _. **Is your comment directed at them?** When someone is too agitated to comply with your advice, do they deserve to be shot? Are the poor and black areas of U.S. turning into a horrid police state, or does the ubiquity of video cameras just make us more aware of it? I’m not sure. But the attitude demonstrated by the trite and insolent advice offered in OP is part of the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/164 "2016-07-09T13:59:02Z")
Part of the problem is TV, which perpetuates the myth that police officers give you three of more warnings before they shoot. Bullshit. You get ONE warning and about two seconds to react. If you don’t the cop does. I’m not saying that’s always right, just that it’s the way it is. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/165 "2016-07-09T14:00:22Z")
Philando Castile **DID** comply with the cops and they murdered him anyway. Got any more bright ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/166 "2016-07-09T16:44:38Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The fact that black people are overwhelmingly more likely to be victims of unjustified police violence, up to and including deliberate murder, would indicate otherwise. See post #94 and cites. Adding to that post to address your particular statement I know of no statistics for _unjustified_ killings of suspects by the police by race. But there are statistics for police killings of suspects or any force used in arresting suspects, by race. Summarizing again recent articles in major papers the rate of shootings of blacks by the police is 2.5 that of whites (WAPO), but per FBI data that’s about the same ratio as the overall arrest rate black/white. The rate of force (of all kinds, justified or not) used in arrests was found in a recent study (per NYT) to be ~28% higher per arrest for blacks than whites, but that’s not really ‘overwhelming’, even before considering that force might be justified in a higher proportion of arrests of blacks than arrests of whites. And that possibility is suggested, though not proved, by the fact (FBI data) that the rate of arrest of blacks for some serious crimes (murder 6+ times as high, robbery 8+ times as high) is much more disproportionate than the overall arrest rate. It would seem difficult to assemble complete and broadly agreed upon statistics on _unjustified_ police use of force, since they’d probably depend on official findings of justification, which are often controversial. But if overall police use of force or lethal force isn’t actually disproportionate to the rate of commission of serious crimes by race this IMO seriously undercuts the typical presentation of the issue, in the public debate, as mainly a racial one. And stats don’t seem to show a clear disproportion in police killings to crime rate by race. Individual incidents should be evaluated on their own merits. Likewise the above isn’t directly relevant to a discussion of whether the police could reduce killings of suspects (legally justified or not) without unduly endangering themselves or reducing the effectiveness of law enforcement. Perhaps they can, which would be good. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/167 "2016-07-09T16:46:47Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This attitude totally boggles the mind. > > "We had to shoot the perp; negotiating might have cost an hour of our time. That’s $34 _each plus benefits_. **Someone has to think of the taxpayers**. > > “Obviously once we decided to shoot, we emptied our magazines into the perp’s center of mass — that’s just protocol.” That’s the totally asinine side of their argument, to which my response is; “Oh wait, you think it’s ok to kill people because _you’re busy_?” **NO** ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/168 "2016-07-09T16:54:23Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > See post #94 and cites. Adding to that post to address your particular statement I know of no statistics for _unjustified_ killings of suspects by the police by race. But there are statistics for police killings of suspects or any force used in arresting suspects, by race. > > Summarizing again recent articles in major papers the rate of shootings of blacks by the police is 2.5 that of whites (WAPO), but per FBI data that’s about the same ratio as the overall arrest rate black/white. The rate of force (of all kinds, justified or not) used in arrests was found in a recent study (per NYT) to be ~28% higher per arrest for blacks than whites, but that’s not really ‘overwhelming’, even before considering that force might be justified in a higher proportion of arrests of blacks than arrests of whites. And that possibility is suggested, though not proved, by the fact (FBI data) that the rate of arrest of blacks for some serious crimes (murder 6+ times as high, robbery 8+ times as high) is much more disproportionate than the overall arrest rate. > > It would seem difficult to assemble complete and broadly agreed upon statistics on _unjustified_ police use of force, since they’d probably depend on official findings of justification, which are often controversial. But if overall police use of force or lethal force isn’t actually disproportionate to the rate of commission of serious crimes by race this IMO seriously undercuts the typical presentation of the issue, in the public debate, as mainly a racial one. And stats don’t seem to show a clear disproportion in police killings to crime rate by race. > > Individual incidents should be evaluated on their own merits. Likewise the above isn’t directly relevant to a discussion of whether the police could reduce killings of suspects (legally justified or not) without unduly endangering themselves or reducing the effectiveness of law enforcement. Perhaps they can, which would be good. Why would we expect the rate of police killing of black men to be in proportion to the black crime rate? I think that assumption demonstrates a very shallow understanding of the nature and causes of crime. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/169 "2016-07-09T17:05:19Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Philando Castile **DID** comply with the cops and they murdered him anyway. So his girlfriend was lying when she said he put his hands up after being told not to move? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/170 "2016-07-09T17:31:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > So his girlfriend was lying when she said he put his hands up after being told not to move? So you believe he was killed for putting his hands up when ordered to freeze, and that would be a completely justified shooting? :dubious: The facts are a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/171 "2016-07-09T18:01:32Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So you believe he was killed for putting his hands up when ordered to freeze, and that would be a completely justified shooting? :dubious: I _know_ that a man who’d just declared he had a gun made an unexpected movement after being told not to move. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/172 "2016-07-09T18:21:01Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > See post #94 and cites. Adding to that post to address your particular statement I know of no statistics for _unjustified_ killings of suspects by the police by race. But there are statistics for police killings of suspects or any force used in arresting suspects, by race. > > Summarizing again recent articles in major papers the rate of shootings of blacks by the police is 2.5 that of whites (WAPO), but per FBI data that’s about the same ratio as the overall arrest rate black/white. … I don’t know of statistics for unjustified killings either, and would be wary anyway since, for example, I think Tamir Rice’s killing was considered “justified.” :eek: But one attribute might serve as a very very crude proxy for unjustified: _Did the victim have a weapon?_ [From here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/wp/2015/12/26/2015/12/26/a-year-of-reckoning-police-fatally-shoot-nearly-1000/): > [@](#): > > Although black men make up only 6 percent of the U.S. population, they account for **40 percent of the _unarmed_ men shot to death by police this year** , The Post’s database shows. In the majority of cases in which police shot and killed a person who had attacked someone with a weapon or brandished a gun, the person who was shot was white. But _ **a hugely disproportionate number — 3 in 5 — of those killed after exhibiting less threatening behavior were black or Hispanic.** _ Some portion of police killings really are justified, and including them in stats will dilute evidence of racism. There are many egregious examples of bad killings — Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, etc. Are there many examples of obviously wrong killings of whites? And to some small extent, it is the entire underclass, regardless of race, which is being mistreated. (And middle-class blacks may fall victim to police misbehavior if cops make assumptions based on skin color.) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/173 "2016-07-10T12:17:23Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Why would we expect the rate of police killing of black men to be in proportion to the black crime rate? I think that assumption demonstrates a very shallow understanding of the nature and causes of crime. [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm8wq4BWgAAAPSg?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm8wq4BWgAAAPSg?format=jpg&name=large) ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/174 "2016-07-10T16:56:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > [https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm8wq4BWgAAAPSg?format=jpg&name=large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cm8wq4BWgAAAPSg?format=jpg&name=large) For that and your previous comment and septimus’ comment. You are saying the inference of a correlation between crime rate and police shooting rate shows a shallow understanding, but I doubt there’s a deep understanding of this issue anywhere. OTOH a political movement and theme is based on a strong assumption that unjustified police shootings have a strong specifically racial aspect or even motive. What deep understanding (with factual back up) is that based on? I think it’s self evidently meaningless to simply calculate the rate of police shootings of a particular group and say that’s a problem of bias against that group with no analysis whatsoever of whether police use of force against such group might be much more common in the normal course of justified law enforcement activity. Yet it often seems stated that way in the public debate, 2.5 times higher rate of police shootings of blacks: proof of a problem of (it seems often implied, a quantitatively proportional) racial bias by the police. Your graph shows a disparity basically between police killings and locations. That seems pretty orthogonal to police killings and racial _cause_, especially viewing the locales in the graphic, which don’t seem to correlate heavily to race. The places on the two ends in police killing rate Bakersfield and Riverside (County CA is it?) are relatively similar places with less than national proportional black populations. Likewise Philadephia and Oakland are nearly at opposite ends, despite some similarity (though Oakland has a lower African American % than Philly now, used to be more similar). If the suggestion is that lots of factors beyond race could enter into police shootings (like department practices, local ‘civilian’ culture etc): of course. But again the public movement and debate seems based on a strong assumption about a particular cause, that the suspects are black and being discriminated against. Nor does it actually disprove the inference that more interaction with police based on higher crime rate would result in more shootings by the police, justified or not, after correcting for local differences. One wouldn’t expect a ratio of arrest rate for robbery or murder of 6-8:1 to have _any_ effect on the rate of police shootings of suspects? Septimus’ quoted study is more relevant IMO and thanks for that. But as to the quote 1. “Some portion of police killings really are justified, and including them in stats will dilute evidence of racism. There are many egregious examples of bad killings — Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, etc. Are there many examples of obviously wrong killings of whites?” 2. And to some small extent, it is the entire underclass, regardless of race, which is being mistreated. (And middle-class blacks may fall victim to police misbehavior if cops make assumptions based on skin color.) 3. The last part seems to tends toward measuring problems by how much attention the media gives them, which is fraught IMO for any issue. There’s no evidence AFAIK that unjustified police shootings of blacks are more common now than they were, yet obviously getting more media attention. One could assume the problem was previously ignored and now not as much, but that’s all that is, an assumption. The same people believing that would I’d guess in many cases also believe that media (local TV news in particular) over emphasizes the threat of African American criminals. 4. But mistreated seems to assume unjustified, or even conscious wrongdoing which is often asserted in the public debate, usually the assertion of malicious racial bias. Perhaps underclass behaviors in contact with the police are more likely to result in the need for justified police force, or it’s some combination of that and ‘mistreatment’. Ever watch ‘Cops’? (you’d be justified to throw my comment in 1. back in my face if I pretended that was real evidence, I’m not saying so, but it suggests to me both possibilities at times). ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/175 "2016-07-10T21:11:29Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > But one attribute might serve as a very very crude proxy for unjustified: _Did the victim have a weapon?_ That percentage has dropped to 35% for 2016. Most likely just variation in small data samples than anything meaningful. > [@septimus](#): > > Some portion of police killings really are justified, and including them in stats will dilute evidence of racism. There are many egregious examples of bad killings — Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, etc. Are there many examples of obviously wrong killings of whites? Dylan Noble, and there’s even a video: [Footage shows Fresno police shot Dylan Noble twice on ground – video | California | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jul/07/dylan-noble-fresno-fatal-police-shooting-witness-video) He was pulled over for speeding and according to cops reached into his waist band. They shot him twice. At this point, someone starts recording it from around a corner. Dylan can be seen laying on the ground face up. Two cops are about 5 feet away from him facing the top of Dylans head. They are yelling instructions. At 5 seconds there is a shot on the video, the third time Dylan is shot. He remains laying on the ground and makes no attempt to get up. The cops continue to yell instructions and at the 20 second mark shoot him again. Making two on the video and four overall. No weapon was found on Dylan’s body. Or the case of Kelly Thomas: > [@](#): > > “Now you see my fists?” Fullerton police officer Manuel Ramos asked Thomas while slipping on a pair of latex gloves. “Yeah, what about them?” Thomas responded. “They are getting ready to fuck you up,” said Ramos. Ramos, and other cops, then beat Thomas to death. He died from choking on his own blood. > **[Killing of Kelly Thomas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Kelly_Thomas)** > > Kelly Thomas (April 5, 1974 – July 10, 2011) was a homeless man diagnosed with schizophrenia who lived on the streets of Fullerton, California. He died five days after being severely beaten by six members of the Fullerton Police Department whom he encountered on July 5, 2011, in what was later described as "one of the worst police beatings in \[US\] history." > Medical records show that bones in his face were broken and he choked on his own blood. The coroner concluded that compression of the thorax... Here’s a video: I'd recommend not watching it. It took them about four minutes to beat Thomas into silence and for most of it he is begging them to stop. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/176 "2016-07-11T00:01:33Z")
**Corry El** , my purpose of posting that graph was to show that police shootings do not seem to be correlated to rates of violent crime. That rebuts the implied premise of your earlier post that the disparity in shootings might be the result of the higher rates of violent crime within black communities. It is absolutely true that merely demonstrating a racial disparity in shootings does not show a racial cause (though it is an important first step!). I don’t think most people who support BLM rest their argument on the fact of the disparity alone. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/177 "2016-07-11T01:10:35Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Take away their guns and you stop 100% of them. You do realize that the only thing a gun ban will do is take at wins Ferrin law abiding citizens whiffs guns are no that to anyone. Do you really believe if guns were babe’s they criminals would just turn in their firearms? If anything the problem would be worse as now citizens would be unable to defend themselves. Sorry, but the idea theft a gun ban would end gun violence is a false perception. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/178 "2016-07-11T02:53:46Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > You do realize that the only thing a gun ban will do is take at wins Ferrin law abiding citizens whiffs guns are no that to anyone. Do you really believe if guns were babe’s they criminals would just turn in their firearms? > > If anything the problem would be worse as now citizens would be unable to defend themselves. Sorry, but the idea theft a gun ban would end gun violence is a false perception. Sorry for the typos. As I’ve explained before, small phone screen, old eyes, big fingers and stupid auto correct. Well that and my inability to preview before I post. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/179 "2016-07-11T03:14:27Z")
We could all follow Rudy Giulani’s explanation that all it would take is for black mothers to tell their children to be polite to policemen. Because we can all see how well that worked for Philando Castile. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2016, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324/180 "2016-07-11T14:14:12Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > \*\*1. my purpose of posting that graph was to show that police shootings do not seem to be correlated to rates of violent crime. That rebuts the implied premise of your earlier post that the disparity in shootings might be the result of the higher rates of violent crime within black communities. > > 1. It is absolutely true that merely demonstrating a racial disparity in shootings does not show a racial cause (though it is an important first step!). I don’t think most people who support BLM rest their argument on the fact of the disparity alone. 1. Again I don’t see how it directly rebuts it. At some point it defies common sense to say that arrest rates for violent crimes have _no_ influence on police shooting rates. Let me ask again more directly, is that your contention? And do you think the graphic is proof of that? Yes, the graphic suggests that factors other than racial bias by the police might account for some, all, or even more than all of the disparity by race in police killings. But that’s basically my point, not to ‘prove’ that crime rates explain it all. I tried to be clear saying that, that 6-8 times higher arrest rate for murder/robbery suggested, didn’t prove, an alternate explanation. AFAIC the graphic just adds to that, suggesting further alternative explanations _besides_ just crime rates. 2. I don’t see how you can say that, the last sentence. The raw stat (or variations of the same) of higher rate of killing of blacks by police is repeated constantly in media in support of BLM, without any discussion of what it actually means, if anything. And that’s the more intellectual sice of the ‘argument’, not considering slogans and soundbites, ‘it’s open season on African Americans’ etc. BLM is largely based on an ‘everyone knows’ understanding extrapolated from particular incidents, and it shows all the typical excesses of something which makes claims and generalizations far beyond established facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-solution-to-90-of-police-shootings/759324.md?page=10)