# The sorry state of British politics (Anti-semitism and racism edition) **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 5, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983 "2016-05-05T13:10:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/81 "2016-05-10T05:52:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Yitzhak Yosef is a racist piece of shit. What’s your point? Let’s try this slowly, shall we? People are accusing a political party of being anti-semitical and pushing ethnic cleansing policies, because one MP re-tweeted a parody post, and another MP foolishly tried to refer to a time when Hitler’s policies were aligned with zionist policies. According to a number of posters, this is proof that the party as a whole has a problem with anti-semitism. So, if I can reference a Chief Rabbi making a far more direct “Get the non-jews out” statement, then surely we have to conclude that the organisation he represents must have a similar problem as an entire entity? So which is it? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/82 "2016-05-10T06:06:15Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Norm Finkelstein is a known self-hater. Oh goody, fall-back position number two. It’s always going to be a bit trickier to dismiss Jewish critics of Palestinian policies as anti-semites. Instead they should be labelled as self-haters, or uncle Toms. I’m guessing we’re just a few steps away from the other standard meme of “Israel has no choice but to defend itself from Arab aggression, whatever that takes”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/83 "2016-05-10T06:25:26Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Let’s try this slowly, shall we? > > People are accusing a political party of being anti-semitical and pushing ethnic cleansing policies, because one MP re-tweeted a parody post, and another MP foolishly tried to refer to a time when Hitler’s policies were aligned with zionist policies. > > According to a number of posters, this is proof that the party as a whole has a problem with anti-semitism. > > So, if I can reference a Chief Rabbi making a far more direct “Get the non-jews out” statement, then surely we have to conclude that the organisation he represents must have a similar problem as an entire entity? > > So which is it? Yosef’s political party, **Shas** , is indeed a fundamentalist religious organization with strong racist elements. This is not news - I’ve been protesting them (and voting against them) for years. He was appointed to his position by a spineless, opportunistic right-wing government. Again, this is nothing new. My country has some serious problems, including a history of electing total dipshits. Again - what does this have to do with the price of tea in China, or with anti-Semitism in the Labour party? Are you claiming that it doesn’t exist? That all British anti-Semites vote Tory? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/84 "2016-05-10T07:21:02Z")
As an aside, it’s understandable that Jews hate Palestinians a bit, just as it’s even more understandable that Palestinians hate Jews, too. It’s still wrong, and I’m not excusing it, but at least I can see where they’re coming from - it’s hard to fight a war with someone for nearly a century without hating them just a little, you know? What I can’t understand is why the Israeli-Arab conflict is even an issue in UK politics, let alone such a big one. Why is it any of your business? Don’t you have enough problems of your own? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/85 "2016-05-10T07:47:47Z")
The Arab-Israeli conflict is thought to affect relations between Muslims and Jews within Britain. It probably doesn’t matter, actually. Muslims aren’t fans of gays either, and gays haven’t established a state on Muslim lands. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/86 "2016-05-10T08:43:35Z")
I think it’s important to distinguish between two different claims here: 1. \*The Labour Party is anti-semitic. \*It is not. 2. _The Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism_. It does. A quick review of incidents which support 2): Naz Shah shares a tweet suggesting that the easy solution to the Israel-Palestine crisis is to move Israel, commenting “Problem solved”. She also used the phrase “The Jews are rallying” as an exhortation to her supporters on Facebook. _She has admitted these were anti-semitic and apologised sincerely for them._ Ken Livingstone defends her post-apology by saying that Hitler supported Zionism and that it’s only real anti-semitism if you despise the Jews in Golders Green and not just the ones in Israel. Labour [confirms](http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-anti-semitism-row-full-list-members-suspended-by-party-1558000) 18 local councillors have been suspended for anti-semitic comments, including claims that Adolf Hitler was the greatest man in history because he stopped the Jews from taking over Palestine, that Israel is behind ISIS, that there’s a Jewish lobby controlling the Oscars, that Israel is conducting a new Holocaust in Palestine, and that six million Zionists were killed by Hitler. (The last revealing how hollow the claim that “I’m not talking about Jews, I’m talking about Zionists” really is). An investigation into the Oxford University Labour Club following the resigning co-chairs [claims](https://www.facebook.com/alex.chalmers.16/posts/1054958807895916) that: > [@](#): > > Whether it be members of the Executive throwing around the term ‘Zio’ (a term for Jews usually confined to websites run by the Ku Klux Klan) with casual abandon, senior members of the club expressing their ‘solidarity’ with Hamas and explitictly defending their tactics of indiscriminately murdering civilians, or a former Co-Chair claiming that 'most accusations of antisemitism are just the Zionists crying wolf’, a large proportion of both OULC and the student left in Oxford more generally have some kind of problem with Jews. There are further leaked claims that the compliance unit is struggling to keep up with number of complaints being made. The majority of these involve low-level party functionaries; many predate Jeremy Corbyn’s election. Nevertheless, it seems that the barriers to people with nakedly anti-semitic views joining Labour and winning official approval for candidacy and elected office aren’t as high as they should be. Which suggests that at best, too many people have heard these views and not blinked. It’s hard to believe, by contrast, that anyone could become a Labour councillor if they casually referred in conversation to racist tropes about blacks, for example.\* No doubt the reason that many anti-semitic comments of these are cropping up is because Tory/right-wing media researchers are gleefully searching for them. They are absolutely being used for electoral advantage. But the problem Labour has to deal with isn’t that people are looking for them, it’s that they are being found. \*Please also note that when a string of UKIP councillors were found to be casually making racist remarks online, the conclusion “UKIP has a racism problem” was not considered controversial. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/87 "2016-05-10T09:11:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > As an aside, it’s understandable that Jews hate Palestinians a bit, just as it’s even more understandable that Palestinians hate Jews, too. It’s still wrong, and I’m not excusing it, but at least I can see where they’re coming from - it’s hard to fight a war with someone for nearly a century without hating them just a little, you know? What I can’t understand is why the Israeli-Arab conflict is even an issue in UK politics, let alone such a big one. Why is it any of your business? Don’t you have enough problems of your own? well said. I’m also very curious why Muslims of all stripes, not just Palestinian ones, but ones from far flung places like Indonesia, Bangaledesh, Sudan, Britain, France, and even American Muslims, have such uniform views on the issue and care so much, whereas there’s actually real discourse among Jews across the world on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/88 "2016-05-10T09:37:17Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > well said. I’m also very curious why Muslims of all stripes, not just Palestinian ones, but ones from far flung places like Indonesia, Bangaledesh, Sudan, Britain, France, and even American Muslims, have such uniform views on the issue and care so much, whereas there’s actually real discourse among Jews across the world on the issue. That’s easily answered: they don’t. If you consider actual Muslims rather than the one-dimensional cartoon versions you seem to be endlessly discussing, you’ll find an _extremely_ diverse range of views on any subject, with quite a lot of internecine squabbling (up to and including warfare) and arguments over who is a “true Muslim”. If you genuinely think 1.6 billion people of ANY stripe are capable of having “uniform views” on any issue, you really don’t understand people. Speaking of diversity of views, look at the responses to Sadiq Khan’s tweets sometime - they range from calling him a radical jihadist planning to enslave women and kill all gays, to calling him a Zionist puppet and traitor to Islam. And it’s still his first week. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/89 "2016-05-10T12:20:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wait…you don’t think that moving the entire Jewish population out of Israel and re-locating them to the US is ethnic cleansing?? Seriously? 😕 There must be some explanation why the matter isn’t being put before a jury under hate crime laws. Maybe … wait a minute … she wasn’t actually advocating moving a state. Wouldn’t that be difficult, like relocating Scotland in Brazil or something? Probably, except to some people on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/90 "2016-05-10T12:22:09Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Speaking of diversity of views, look at the responses to Sadiq Khan’s tweets sometime - they range from calling him a radical jihadist planning to enslave women and kill all gays, to calling him a Zionist puppet and traitor to Islam. And it’s still his first week. Disappointed he missed the chance to ban Trump from the UK for being a racist cunt. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/91 "2016-05-10T12:22:13Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > That’s easily answered: they don’t. If you consider actual Muslims rather than the one-dimensional cartoon versions you seem to be endlessly discussing, you’ll find an _extremely_ diverse range of views on any subject, with quite a lot of internecine squabbling (up to and including warfare) and arguments over who is a “true Muslim”. If you genuinely think 1.6 billion people of ANY stripe are capable of having “uniform views” on any issue, you really don’t understand people. > > Speaking of diversity of views, look at the responses to Sadiq Khan’s tweets sometime - they range from calling him a radical jihadist planning to enslave women and kill all gays, to calling him a Zionist puppet and traitor to Islam. And it’s still his first week. Why don’t you look at the [Muslim world media](http://www.memritv.org/), or the [countries that don’t have diplomatic relations with Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel#/media/File:Recognition-diplomacy_of_Israel.svg) (they’re nearly all Muslim, and have a large combined population. Much of the populations in the countries that do have relations with Israel want to cut them off, as did the Islam Brotherhood when they ran Egypt). There are plenty of pro-Palestinian Jews. Look [what](http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-unfathomable-life-of-salah-uddin-shoaib-choudhury/) [happens](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/world/middleeast/iraqi-indicted-for-proposal-to-open-talks-with-israel.html) [to](http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/04/218564.html) [the](http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=25368) [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel#Intolerance_towards_Muslim_supporters_of_Israel) pro-Israel Muslims; ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/92 "2016-05-10T12:26:41Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > There are plenty of pro-Palestinian Jews. Look [what](http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-unfathomable-life-of-salah-uddin-shoaib-choudhury/) [happens](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/world/middleeast/iraqi-indicted-for-proposal-to-open-talks-with-israel.html) [to](http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/04/218564.html) [the](http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=25368) [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel#Intolerance_towards_Muslim_supporters_of_Israel) pro-Israel Muslims; “the few”. What about these guys who took 3 seconds to find on google: > **[Muslim supporters of Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel)** > > Muslim supporters of Israel refers to both Muslims and cultural Muslims who support the right to self-determination of the Jewish people and the likewise existence of a Jewish homeland in the Southern Levant, traditionally known as the Land of Israel and corresponding to the modern polity known as the State of Israel. Muslim supporters of the Israeli state are widely considered to be a rare phenomenon in light of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict and the larger Arab–Israeli conflict. W... ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/93 "2016-05-10T12:37:31Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > “the few”. What about these guys who took 3 seconds to find on google: > [Muslim supporters of Israel - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel) Stop the obfuscation! Did you actually read the other links about the reaction to these outliers? Death threats, fleeing, arrests, you name it. Or did you not look at the clips Memri translated? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/94 "2016-05-10T12:39:52Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > There must be some explanation why the matter isn’t being put before a jury under hate crime laws. > > Maybe … wait a minute … she wasn’t actually advocating moving a state. Wouldn’t that be difficult, like relocating Scotland in Brazil or something? > > Probably, except to some people on the internet. Once again, you really should look up what “ethnic cleansing” actually is, because you’re evidence that she didn’t engage in it is hysterically bad. Anyway, Ms. Shah, whom I actually support, has flat out stated it was anti-Semitic and apologized for doing so. To continue to insist it wasn’t is actually insulting to her. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/95 "2016-05-10T12:50:33Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > There must be some explanation why the matter isn’t being put before a jury under hate crime laws. Sure: she’s a politician. Avoiding indictment is what those people do for a living. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/96 "2016-05-10T12:57:27Z")
That must be the answer. Everyone reading will be pleased. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/97 "2016-05-10T13:02:56Z")
I know I am. And really, that’s what’s important, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/98 "2016-05-10T13:03:11Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Stop the obfuscation! you few, you happy few, you band of obfuscators! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/99 "2016-05-10T13:04:10Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Disappointed he missed the chance to ban Trump from the UK for being a racist cunt. The Mayor doesn’t have that power. It was discussed in Parliament and (reasonably) rejected as being an inappropriate reaction to Trump’s objectionable views, as other means of expressing dissent with them were more suited to international diplomacy. > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Why don’t you look at the [Muslim world media](http://www.memritv.org/), or the [countries that don’t have diplomatic relations with Israel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_Israel#/media/File:Recognition-diplomacy_of_Israel.svg) (they’re nearly all Muslim, and have a large combined population. Much of the populations in the countries that do have relations with Israel want to cut them off, as did the Islam Brotherhood when they ran Egypt). > > There are plenty of pro-Palestinian Jews. Look [what](http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-unfathomable-life-of-salah-uddin-shoaib-choudhury/) [happens](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/world/middleeast/iraqi-indicted-for-proposal-to-open-talks-with-israel.html) [to](http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/06/04/218564.html) [the](http://www.israeltoday.co.il/Default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=25368) [few](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_supporters_of_Israel#Intolerance_towards_Muslim_supporters_of_Israel) pro-Israel Muslims; I didn’t say no Muslims held those views. I said that those views don’t reflect those of all Muslims. Your cherry-picked articles don’t refute that point. (And I’m not even going to get into the [potential issues with the objectivity of MEMRI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Accusations_of_bias).) Dude, have you ever actually _met_ a Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983/100 "2016-05-10T13:22:19Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > The Mayor doesn’t have that power. It was discussed in Parliament and (reasonably) rejected as being an inappropriate reaction to Trump’s objectionable views, as other means of expressing dissent with them were more suited to international diplomacy. > > I didn’t say no Muslims held those views. I said that those views don’t reflect those of all Muslims. Your cherry-picked articles don’t refute that point. (And I’m not even going to get into the [potential issues with the objectivity of MEMRI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Media_Research_Institute#Accusations_of_bias).) > > Dude, have you ever actually _met_ a Muslim? I’ve met many Muslims, and the ones I met for the most part were great people. But I think Churchill [said it best](http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/churchillislam.asp): [QUOTE=Winston Churchill] “Individual Muslims may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world.” [/QUOTE] Also, re Memri, you have a better way to see what media from the dar al-Islam says? Also, most of the criticism doesn’t actually criticism the translations (save for a few incidents, which happen with many news orgs) but its raison d’etre, which is basically saying they’d rather surpress the truth about the Muslim world in the name of “peace.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sorry-state-of-british-politics-anti-semitism-and-racism-edition/753983.md?page=6)