# The Sound of Music **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 26, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058 "2002-12-26T23:44:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/1 "2002-12-26T23:44:46Z")
In the Sound of Music, the Austrian set musical, the family were called ‘von Trapp’, but the ‘von’ prefix is used for Junkers who were the Prussian nobility (my history teacher used to tell me that this was an excellent way of divining someones social background and the region they were from). So how come an Austrian Baron has this prefix in his name? ---
**Author:** ![Swede\_Hollow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3bc359/32.png) [@Swede\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swede_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/2 "2002-12-27T00:22:12Z")
It is my understanding that the ‘von’ is a title presented to important, usually aristocratic families. But: 1) It doesn’t belong to the Junkers, who were wealthy, powerful and influential but mostly “middle class” (you usually hear about the Junkers, not the von Junkers) 2) The title is germanic, not German. The Austrians are a germanic people. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/3 "2002-12-27T00:33:18Z")
The Junkers were upper class particularly in the 1930’s when the movie was set (perhaps you are referring to a specific family with the surname ‘Junker’, in that case I should of been clearer, Junker is the general name for the Prussian artistocracy). Though I am less sure about the prefix ‘von’, though I do remember my history teacher (a few years ago mind) telling me that it signified a Junker. ---
**Author:** ![Hrdygrdymn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/77aa72/32.png) [@Hrdygrdymn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrdygrdymn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/4 "2002-12-27T04:07:37Z")
Just a thought He (vT) was being shipped off to be a navy commander which makes little sense for a native Austrian. For a Prussian, however it makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![bradministrator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bradministrator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bradministrator)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/5 "2002-12-27T04:10:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hrdygrdymn \* > \*\*He (vT) was being shipped off to be a navy commander which makes little sense for a native Austrian. For a Prussian, however it makes perfect sense. \*\* von Trapp was an officer in the Austro-Hungarian Navy in WWI. ---
**Author:** ![Hrdygrdymn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/77aa72/32.png) [@Hrdygrdymn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrdygrdymn)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/6 "2002-12-27T04:54:25Z")
Right. My point was that Austria is not the first place one would look to recruit navy officers, it being landlocked and all. On the other hand, were he not a native Austrian he is more likely to have a “von” name and be more likely to have naval experience. Conversely he was fond of eidelweis (p?). So perhaps he was just a flower-sniffing peacenik? Of course none of this answers your question but it does raise another one with regard to the Nazi’s hiring practices. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/7 "2002-12-27T05:29:12Z")
The Junkers were the Prussian land-holding aristocracy, but they were not the Prussian nobility. _von_ (with the lowercase **v** ) is an indicator of a _noble_ rank throughout the Germanic speaking countries. In WWI, Austria still owned the Balkans and based their navy out of what would latter be Yugosavia. They were not landlocked. Earlier still, Austria had held Italy and maintained a navy from that peninsula’s ports. von Trapp was not merely an Australian naval officer, he was an experienced submarine commander, making his recruitment a priority for the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/8 "2002-12-27T14:26:10Z")
The movie aside, the von Trapp family singers were an historic bunch of actual people, so the “von” is authentic. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/9 "2002-12-27T14:50:28Z")
The “von” prefix is not exclusive to Prussia . It was also used in Austria. Von Trapp was a naval officer in the Austrian navy in the First World War. He had important submarine experience, which was rare, and had acheived some renown. It was therefore seen as desirable to have him in the German navy following the Anschluss. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Dickerson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f04885/32.png) [@Scott\_Dickerson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Dickerson)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2002, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/10 "2002-12-28T19:47:10Z")
I believe Cecil has written a column re: the significance of “von.” ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/11 "2002-12-28T20:09:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > von Trapp was not merely an Australian naval officer, he was an experienced submarine commander, making his recruitment a priority for the Nazis. \*\* Ummmm, I know you meant Austrian, not Australian, but I couldn’t resist pointing it out anyway… (Gee, that sure would be a bitch of a commute, though!) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hrdygrdymn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/77aa72/32.png) [@Hrdygrdymn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hrdygrdymn)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/12 "2002-12-30T04:35:44Z")
Okay, so Austria had a navy back in 1918. But between that time and 1938 (or whenever TSOM was set) it didn’t. I find it difficult to believe that the Nazis needed his expertise after being out of commission for 2 decades. I DO believe that his importance as a prominant Austrian national made him an asset for PR reasons. BTW Erich von Daniken (the Swiss hotel manager and author of Chariots of the Gods) is proof that you needn’t be noble, Prussian or particularly gifted to be a “von”. ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/13 "2002-12-30T08:37:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hrdygrdymn \* > **Okay, so Austria had a navy back in 1918. But between that time and 1938 (or whenever TSOM was set) it didn’t. I find it difficult to believe that the Nazis needed his expertise after being out of commission for 2 decades. I DO believe that his importance as a prominant Austrian national made him an asset for PR reasons.** Cecil speaks. > [@](#): > > **…he did have combat experience, knowledge of the local waters, and guts.** ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/14 "2002-12-30T08:41:16Z")
Hmm… when reading that column I can’t help noticing that Cecil invariably refers to the family as the Trapps, not the von Trapps. Could it be that the “von” is an entirely Hollywood fabrication? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/15 "2002-12-30T08:53:58Z")
Georg von Trapp was his name but the singing group was called “The Trapp Family Singers.” I wonder why they left off the “von.” ~Zoe Chloe von Phithian-Thayer~ (Hmmm…) ---
**Author:** ![Who\_me\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/958977/32.png) [@Who\_me\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Who_me_1)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/16 "2002-12-30T16:26:05Z")
**Priceguy** , I imagine that you wanted to link to [this](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950707b.html) ---
**Author:** ![Dunderman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecb155/32.png) [@Dunderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunderman)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2002, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-sound-of-music/145058/17 "2002-12-30T16:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Who\_me? \* > \*\ ***Priceguy** , I imagine that you wanted to link to [this](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a950707b.html) \*\* Oh no, I like sending people to Error 404 messages. You got a problem with that?