The South seceded to protect states' rights from...?

Excellent arguments.

Personally, I think it boils down to two questions. Disregarding the probability that both instances would irrevocably change history in other ways…

  1. Would the Civil War have happened if slavery had never been brought to the New World but state’s rights were left unclear?

  2. Would the Civil War have happened if the state’s rights had been specifically enumerated but otherwise slavery issues occurred as they did historically?

IMHO, the answer to #1 is a definite no, while #2 is a probable yes (depending on what rights were enumerated and how they were interpreted). Slavery was the fire, unclear state’s rights were the bellows. Without slavery, there are no devisive issues I can come up with that would lead to the war.

Oy. Okay, I’m going to do a little pick and choosing because there’s a lot of stuff I’d like to respond to, and if I tried to do it post-by-post, I’d be here all night.

Boris B said:

Except that, while Buchanan was in power, Southern sympathizers had access to the powers of the government that they wouldn’t have had after four years of Lincoln. Buchanan’s Secretary of War (don’t remember his name right off) basically sat back and watched while secessionist soldiers and politicians stole gunpowder, armaments, and deserted in vast numbers in preparation for war. Had the secessionists waited until Lincoln was in power, they wouldn’t have been nearly as able to prepare themselves for war. Sure, they could have hoped that after Lincoln came a moderate Democrat who would have let the South go their own way. But with all the writing on the wall that the end of slavery was nigh, why risk four years?

Boris B also said:

Yes he was, but the oath was to “Uphold the Consitution”, and many people felt that Virginia’s secession was perfectly Constitutional, and therefore that Lincoln’s attempt to force the South back into the Union was the truly unConstitutional act.

(I’d also like to throw Stonewall Jackson in here as an example; not only did he own no slaves, but he ran a Sunday School in (now West) Virginia where, in defiance of national law, he taught slaves and freedmen how to read and write. But still, when war came, he went with his state.)

I think the answer lies in the fact that there wasn’t a heck of a lot of ill-gotten tobacco money. From what I’ve read of the South’s pre-war economy, most tobacco farmers were this close to bankrupcy for most of their lives. Sure, the estates may have looked glorious, but how much did it really cost to build a house on your own land with most of the materials coming from your own land as well? Most Southern slave-owners were “land rich”, meaning that they looked very wealthy on paper, but nearly all of that wealth was tied up in land and equipment, with very little cash for other expenses. That’s the main reason the South clung to slavery so tightly- it was damned cheap as far as agricultural labor was concerned. A single investement worked for dozens of years, not to mention possible offspring; the costs of investing in new machinery to do the same work a little faster was much higher than most Southern farmers could afford. Thus, the reason no one was brining heavy industry and internal investement to the South was because there just wasn’t a lot of spare cash to invest in such things.

Boris B:
Sorry for the off topic post in the other thread that prompted this post. Shortly after writing it I wanted to retract the statement but unfortunately we can’t edit/delete our own posts.
Question
This is an interesting and informative thread but I haven’t seen anyone post on the North’s take on the Civil War. As I understand it the war was not about slavery for them but preserving the union. Had the South laid down their arms and returned to the fold (so to speak) early on they could have held on to slavery. It wasn’t until the Emancipation Proclamation some two years into the whole thing that made it a slavery issue for the North.

Is it possible Lincoln antagonized the South with the intention of forcing their hand with the abolition of slavery as his ultimate goal? That’s a WAG on my part but not without precedent. Franklin Roosevelt wanted in WWII but the public would have none of it. The lend/lease program was partly designed to get the masses irritated as US ships were sunk supplying Britain. (In the end the Japanese made it easy for us to enter the war making lend/lease moot.)

I know I’m asking for speculation on this but had Lincoln not been elected would the Civil War still have occurred (either the South ceceding and the North letting them or the South never deciding to cecede in the first place)? Was the writing on the wall then that slavery was a doomed institution and the Civil War was its death throes (i.e. how long, sans the Civil War, do you suppose slavery could have continued as an institution)?

The way electoral politics were working in 1860, it was extremely unlikely that anyone other than the Republican nominee would have been elected. The Democratic party was split and a third party (in the case, a fourth party) sprung up to try to collect disaffected former Whigs and Know-Nothings.
For Northerners, the other three presidential candidates (Douglas, Breckenridge, and Bell) all had little to offer.
In the South, Lincoln wasn’t even on the ballot.
Despite this, Lincoln still won the popular vote by over a million votes, although not a majority.

Lincoln’s principal Republican opponent in 1860 was William Seward, who would have been more distasteful to the South than Lincoln.

While South Carolina seceded first, some didn’t secede until after Fort Sumter (Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia), so not all Southern states were ready to quit the Union.

There were significant pockets of disagreement with the Civil War on both sides, however I think the Civil War was simply a matter of when it was going to happen. The North wasn’t going to put up with slavery in the South for much longer.

As for how long it could have listed, I believe Brazil still allowed slavery into the 1880s.

Jeff_42, there’s really nothing to be sorry for. On the other post I was mainly frustrated because my current had generated eddys, that is, that I had started side argument that I was afraid would get out of hand, and we’d lose sight of my other thesis. No big deal.

I think you’re right that few Northerners were willing to have a war to end slavery. Some hated it, some were just fine with it, some didn’t care, but few were willing to die to end it. Horace Greeley, anti-slavery editor of one of the big New York papers, wanted to let the South go in peace (provided they held tribunals on the matter - a proposal a few decades ahead of its time!) I have glossed over Northern opinion because, in my opinion, any level of analysis will reveal that the North did not start the war.

This, however, leads me to the question: How many Northerners were really willing to fight to preserve the Union? Secession was not immediately followed by invasion. Even after the Union was supposed to be pursuing actions to defeat rebels who were trying to secede illegally, there was still a lot of thumb-twiddling. In the opening period of the war, I am quite convince that the reason Northern military folks started preparing to fight had little to with slavery or union. Rather, it was the simple proximity of the District of Columbia to the South that put the Federals into fighting moods. I don’t even think the river separated the two at the time (am forgetting when Arlington County was incorporated into Virginia). Having fired upon a Federal fort, the Confederates were at least a psychological threat to the capital, whether you considered them mere rebels or a foreign power. Securing a buffer zone around DC meant capturing bits of Virginia, and war waited just round the corner.

As to Lincoln trying to force the South’s hand, I don’t know. Naturally we’re speculating on his inner motivations. I think of him as primarily a unionist who couldn’t contain his revulsion at slavery. If he could have waved a magic wand and freed all the slaves, I bet he would have done it, but if he (hypothetically) had had to choose between free soil and union, he would have chosen the union. Both are purely hypothetical.

BobT, I think four years is a long time in politics. You’re right that 1860 could scarcely have been different. Add up all the popular totals for the non-Lincolns, and you get 61% of the vote, and a minority of the electoral vote. (Yes, I’ve looked at the state-by-state results, and only two or three states would change hands … Oregon, California, and New Jersey, maybe? Lincoln won nearly all of his states with overall majorities.)

I think a lot could have changed by 1864. The Democrats could have had a remarriage. The Constitutional Union party could have joined them. Voters in New York, or Pennsylvania, or Mass. could have gotten tired of the Republicans’ pro-Western message, and gone back to the parties they had known before 1856. Even if Lincoln had squeaked to reelection in 1864 against monolithic Southern opposition, I can’t imagine that Republican control of Congress or the Courts was assured.

From my understanding, there was more then just thumb-twiddling. Draft riots broke out in the North in the beginning, some people refused to fight completely. It was also legal to pay peopel to fight on behalf of you. In the beginning, the North wasn’t as gung ho for saving the Union as they was once they really became part of the war.
Plus the war didn’t start when the states seceeded, the war started after the South took Fort Sumtner (I THINK that’s the right name. It’s pretty close.)

At the beginning of the war, the North (as did the South) had no problem finding volunteers. The draft riots broke out only after about two years of war, and the rioters tended to be recent Irish immigrants who viewed the Federal draft in the same way that they viewed British conscription/impressment. (Certainly, many native-born men joined the riots, but they did not start them.) Your other point regarding the ability to purchase another man’s service to help you avoid the draft is accurate.

Pepper: the big difference between the Northern Industrial Complex & Southern Slavery was HOPE. You might better yourself, and you often DID better your childrens life. With slavery you had no hope. And in the North you were inferiour scum because you were POOR, in the South you were inferiour scum because you were BLACK. You can stop being POOR with luck & hard work…

And I never read that it was common practice for every pretty female worker to be raped repeatedly as a factory worker. If you could back that up with a cite (and I’m not talking about serious sexual harrasment, I’m talking repeated rape as a matter of everyday life).

I didn’t mean to say in my previous post that being just plain poor and being a slave were one and the same. I was responding to this quote

I was pointing out the general similarities. It’s obvious that the differences outweighed the similarities, but there are some points in history that I don’t think can be denied.Including the fact that immigrants were exploited and there were no Labor Unions or protection of workers rights. Howerver, since that is inconsequential to the actually OP and debate, I respectfully withdraw the previous post for now.

Thanks Pepper, FAST post. and altho I would rather be a Northern factory worker than a Slave, I would prefer either to being a serf. And my ancestors kept serfs, and were pissed off when the Emperor made them free them. So I can’t thro TOO many stones. (I remember asking my sainted Babuska/Grandmother “Were we Cossacks in the Old Country?”, and her answering, “No, we KEPT Cossacks to keep the serfs in line”) :smiley:

Anyway folks, read a british reading of the Civil war, where they can tell the truth without losing sales in the South: it was SLAVERY>

I actually have a British-authored US History book at home. It’s written for a high school level (roughly).

The book states “The Civil War then was fought over the right of a state to secede from the Union.” The book goes on to state that the principal reason that there were circumstances that led to secession was slavery.

It’s kind of irrelevant, but I’m including this link because it’s neat and it pertains to what BobT and I were debating (actually we were in total agreement on this issue):
http://viva.lib.virginia.edu/gic/elections/1860pv.html

Lincoln won only three states with minorities of the popular vote: Oregon, California, and Delaware. The rest he lost, or won with absolute (local) majorities.

  • Pepperlandgirl

If I had known you felt that way the whole time, you’d have had my full agreement. I must have misconstrued you.

  • BobT’s British textbook

Huh. I’m trying to figure that one out. It seems like when a lot of people talk about the causes of the Civil War, they are thinking of Northern motivation. To which I reply, uhh, it doesn’t take much motivation to get shot at.

And by the way, my little remark about thumb-twiddling had more to do with slow action by the McLellan and the Army of the Potomac. I don’t think I was clear.

Well, it was a British textbook on US history. …
I also have a U.S. History textbook written in 1961, which states that the Civil War (which is referred to in one chapter as “The War for Southern Independence”), started over the dispute between the Federal Government and the Southern States about the legality of secession.

The retrocession was sometime in the early 1840’s, so it was well before the war. A fascinating point, and one I’d never thought of before.

Anyone else read Harry Turtledove? He writes a very enjoyable (to me) series on what World War One would have been if the South had won the war (The CSA allied with its traditional allies Great Britian and France, and the USA allied with that other European superpower Germany.)

I am pleased at the number of Civil War historians (and threads) on the SDMB? Are there any Am Rev buffs here? Besides the Maryland historians?