# The Southern Poverty Law Center has jumped the shark **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588 "2016-11-04T05:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/21 "2016-11-04T09:57:16Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Although I usually tend to disagree with you about immigration (and many other things), this is a good point. Like the Martin Luther thing, it’s pretty hypocritical for the hard left to fiercely attack her on this point when there are millions of undocumented immigrants who have given false biographical information to their employers, and there’s no way those same people would excoriate them for doing that… Nah. There’s a difference between lying to get by and lying to to promote a good cause. The latter can backfire heavily, hurting the good cause. My main thing is that, no matter how big a liar she is, that doesn’t make her part of a hate group. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/22 "2016-11-04T10:27:17Z")
Good points, **T**. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/23 "2016-11-04T10:28:44Z")
This is standard [Regressive Leftism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regressive_left), and indeed it’s sad to see that it has now corrupted the noble SPLC. Perhaps people who aren’t close to academia may not realize how widespread this is. The Regressive Leftists would usually be champions of liberal values, promoting tolerance, opposing misogyny & homophobia. And yet, as a badge of virtue, they seek to align themselves wholly uncritically with even the most reactionary Muslims who preach intolerance, misogyny & homophobia. Apparently if you are an _authentic_ Muslim, a _bona fide_ member of the in-group brown-skinned oppressed, this status gives you a free pass (cultural relativism!) on values that the same Regressive Leftists would decry vehemently if espoused by a non-oppressed (say) white conservative Christian. Worse, any moderate critic of mainstream “in-group” Islam is denounced as an Islamophobic bigot and “de-platformed”. Through some twisted logic, this even applies to a critic of extremist attitudes such as Nawaz who is _himself_ a Muslim. This is not the first time this has happened to Nawaz. When he committed the cardinal of engaging in dialog with Sam Harris, he was described as a traitor and “porch-monkey” by the regressive left. > **[Don’t Call Me ‘Porch Monkey’](https://www.thedailybeast.com/dont-call-me-porch-monkey)** > > As a liberal Muslim challenging Islamists and engaging atheists, Maajid Nawaz has been vilified by leftists who sound an awful lot like bigots. Some elements of the academic Left have lost their way so badly that they are now undermining the efforts of the few moderate Muslims such as Nawaz who dare to speak out to criticize extremism, intolerance and bigotry and call for reform within their own religion. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/24 "2016-11-04T10:29:52Z")
Is Nawaz even a secularist? I think he believes in God and considers himself a moderate Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/25 "2016-11-04T10:47:30Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Is Nawaz even a secularist? I think he believes in God and considers himself a moderate Muslim. Yes, he is a Muslim. AHA is not - well, she was in a cultural sense by birth; but she no longer follows Islam at all. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/26 "2016-11-04T10:48:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Ayaan Hirsi Ali may say mean things about Islam, but nothing that isn’t true. She in fact constantly has lied and has made many false statements about not only her own past and the family history but also about the religious precepts and her “reformation” ideas are superificial grandstanding to rake in the euros Of course the bigots and the chronically ignorant and badly informed like you give her credence as it works for the political narratives of hate, and of bigotry. > [@](#): > > She’s been in the trenches. Of course a privileged upbringing in the comfortable upper class Kenyan exile with a liberal family in exile from the dictatorship for over a decade, was sent to the secular schools and got a good educations, then used false statements and name to secure a comfortable asylum and work in the Netherlands - the fabrications exposures that saw her lose her citizenship in the Netherlands. > [@](#): > > She’s seen oppression the SPLC members can’t even imagine. Oh yes with the active fantasy life of the millions of white knights coming to save us from ourselves and our religion… you must continue the “civilizing mission” > [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Islam is an un-American death cult and its influence on society must be stopped. You are hateful stunted little pig of a hate mongerer and a troll. > [@AK84](#): > > Ayaan Hirsi Ali? You mean the lady who lied about pretty much everything of her life, including her name and date of birth? No matter, the narrative is what they want, and any kinds of excuses will be made as it fits the hate mongering narrative. > [@adaher](#): > > She did what every illegal immigrant does. As she was **not an “illegal immigrant”** this is simply a falsehood and some stupid excuse making you make. She entered the EU entirely legally and sponsored by her family. She made the choice to make the false asylum application, pretending to be fleeing from the Somali civil war and inventing stories that were later proven to be completely false (adopting it can be supposed the real stories of real refugees). I have no opinion about this american organization, but the Hirsi Ali is no hero for muslim women, she is a exploiter and exagerator of the real problems for her own personal aggrandization and she disgustingly plays to the bigot audience. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/27 "2016-11-04T10:51:58Z")
When women can drive and leave the house unaccompanied by men and don’t get stoned for getting raped we can talk about what she’s lying about. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/28 "2016-11-04T11:01:43Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I just learned from Sam Harris’s podcast that the SPLC has [placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups.](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2016/10/maajid-nawaz-splc-anti-muslim-extremist/505685/) Maybe you should not listen uncritically to people, it took just one bit of Googlling to see that this organization did not in fact put these two people “on their list of hate groups”, but profile them in a list of people they consider [extremist anti-Muslim speakers](https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists). Some of the persons on the list are also listed - as the article makes it clear - as being hate groups, but only when they are so cited. The hate group list from reading this article is a seperate thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/29 "2016-11-04T11:03:13Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > When women can drive and leave the house unaccompanied by men and don’t get stoned for getting raped we can talk about what she’s lying about. Well then we can do so right now since indeed women can do these things and she did indeed lie extensively and fabricate a history. Or are you going to continue to show yourself to be a stupid lying bigot like the last time you made these idiotic claims. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/30 "2016-11-04T11:03:49Z")
That’s not better, and criticism of a religion is not hate. Is Bill Maher on extremist list? Or is it fine if you hate all religions equally? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/31 "2016-11-04T11:06:32Z")
Note which countries are at the bottom for treatment of women: > **[Global Gender Gap Report 2015](https://www.weforum.org/reports/global-gender-gap-report-2015/)** Now in Saudi Arabia, women have to have a male guardian, even if they are adults. And they still cannot drive. I wonder how bad it has to be for 11 countries(all Muslim) to be worse than Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/32 "2016-11-04T11:17:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Note which countries are at the bottom for treatment of women: Yes, poor lesser developed countries. > [@](#): > > Now in Saudi Arabia, women have to have a male guardian, even if they are adults. And you think this is news? Or relevant to the rest of the Islamic world where yes, we all DO drive when we have a car and there is no law against it. Nor is it the law requiring in male guardian nor is it the law there is stoning… Your constant use of the Saudi example as if it were the typical one as the typical bigot hater idiocy does not impress me. Of course the Islamic countries that rank highly you ignore, it does not fit the ignorant bigot hater narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/33 "2016-11-04T11:19:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That’s not better It is a completely different fact set. I did not make a statement about better, I noted that the representation was false. > [@](#): > > and criticism of a religion is not hate. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. > [@](#): > > Is Bill Maher on extremist list? I do not know who he is, but why do you not try to read perhaps, instead of like with the renewable energy subject, fishing to confirm your biases. > [@](#): > > Or is it fine if you hate all religions equally? It is stupid to hate religions so no it is not fine. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/34 "2016-11-04T11:25:06Z")
There is not a single predominantly Muslim country on Earth where an unmarried, sexually liberated, atheist woman can live openly without putting herself in grave danger. That’s the fundamental reality your apologetics can’t dispel. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/35 "2016-11-04T11:35:47Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > There is not a single predominantly Muslim country on Earth where an unmarried, sexually liberated, atheist woman can live openly without putting herself in grave danger. This is complete nonsense. Single women can live alone in the Morocco, the Tunisia, the Kazakhstan, the Uzbekistan, the Turkey, the Albania, the Bosnia, the Senegal, the Indonesia, the Malaysian, etc. The levels of the openly stated non-belief in the Albania, the Central Asian republics, the Balkans also makes this a lie although I do not put a great value on the ostentatious athiesm pretensions of being so superior to belief (even as a person not actually practicing and not actually really a deep believer). (what the personal belief of the woman matters here seems only to try to confound the idea of the religion with the personal life choices) > [@](#): > > That’s the fundamental reality your apologetics can’t dispel. The fundamental reality is that you and the others rely on gross stereotypes as if the entire islamic world is the Saudi Arabia, and you are grossly ignorant. Of course what do I expect from the idiot who starts the thread advocating the coup d’etat against Trump? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/36 "2016-11-04T11:46:34Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes, poor lesser developed countries. African Christian or animist nations are doing better on womens’ equality and are poorer. > [@](#): > > And you think this is news? Or relevant to the rest of the Islamic world where yes, we all DO drive when we have a car and there is no law against it. Nor is it the law requiring in male guardian nor is it the law there is stoning… No, not all of the Islamic world is like Saudi Arabia. A lot of it is, and even the best countries do poorly on womens’ rights. As far as I’m concerned, angry Muslim women can say whatever the hell they want about it and can’t really be too extreme. > [@](#): > > Of course the Islamic countries that rank highly you ignore, it does not fit the ignorant bigot hater narrative. No Muslim nations rank highly. The best is Kazakhstan, the best majority Muslim country that wasn’t quite recently an officially atheist state is Bangladesh. Kazakhstan is 47 and Bangladesh is 64. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/37 "2016-11-04T12:04:15Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > African Christian or animist nations are doing better on womens’ equality and are poorer. Some of them are doing better than some Muslim countries, and some are doing worse. So of course again the distorting lies of selective focuses so let us just cite > [@](#): > > 47 Kazakhstan 0.719 > 64 Bangladesh 0.704 > 70 Albania 0.701 > 72 Senegal 0.698 > 76 Kyrgyz Republic 0.693 [the top score of the Iceland is .881 for the reference, to understand the statistical spread and not fall into the statistical illiteracy of blind ranking listings] Muslim countries ranking above even some of the Christian majority European Union members like the Greece, the Hungary, the Romania, the Slovak Republic - and above the Japan (rating .67). And we can see also > [@](#): > > 92 Indonesia 0.681 > 95 Tajikistan 0.675 > 96 Azerbaijan 0.675 etc. Not the amazing scores but not also the great differentiations from the majority of the country ratings even for the developed countreis. but apparently No True Islamic Scotsman occures if the country does not fit your bigotted perceptions. > [@](#): > > No, not all of the Islamic world is like Saudi Arabia. A lot of it is and even the best countries do poorly on womens’ rights. No a lot is not like the Saudi Arabia and no “even the best” are not doing very poorly, this is the statement of simple bigotry. > [@](#): > > As far as I’m concerned, angry Muslim women can say whatever the hell they want about it and can’t really be too extreme. Of course it supports your narrative of hate and bigotry. not that Hirsi Ali is an “angry muslim woman” - she is a grifter and an angry religion leaver, which is her right, but is not impressive to me any more than the angry rants of the ex-Catholic or the ex-Protestant. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/38 "2016-11-04T12:06:52Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > also, this is a great idea of how free speech and dissent die at the hands of Muslim immigration. …says the man who has actively espoused views against freedom of speech, freedom of religion…hell, even the freedom to dress the way you want. You’re far more willing to suppress free speech and dissent than any Muslim I’ve ever met. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/39 "2016-11-04T12:59:11Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > …says the man who has actively espoused views against freedom of speech, freedom of religion…hell, even the freedom to dress the way you want. You’re far more willing to suppress free speech and dissent than any Muslim I’ve ever met. Yes, he is a stunted person who lashes out at the those he is fearful of, the transexuals who he makes up lies about, etc. Otherwise it is worth highlighting the **World Economic Forum** ratings on the gender equalit, the\*\* Global Gender Gap \*\*are very interesting and useful for study, but they are not the same thing as the lies of Adahar impl These ratings are across four principal areas, from which comes the Zero to 1 rating (1 is the perfection) (1) the observed attainment in the economic field (employment, level of the employment, gaps in the salaries observed for men and women, professional employment). (2) the educational attainment and gap by the gender (3) the health attainment and gap by the gender (4) the political attainment as represented by the level of the female representation in the national legislature, or in the Ministerial levels or as the head of state. These are not the same things as the statutory legal rights although of course there will be a relationship, but we can see a great variation. In the actual country profiles you see the charts of comparison against the income peer groups, which then gives the better picture of the relative performance as the WEF rankings in their function are very economical, better than lensing through the religious bigotry. Of course I can be sure Adaher does not and did not know one thing about these internal details or the statistical analysis behind them, and just looked for the raw ranking number (without any attention to the actual spread in the scores or what these scores are actually reflecting) as part of his usual habit of seeking confirmation for his biases and supporting his narrative that the Muslim world = Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/40 "2016-11-04T13:27:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Maybe you should not listen uncritically to people, it took just one bit of Googlling to see that this organization did not in fact put these two people “on their list of hate groups”, but profile them in a list of people they consider [extremist anti-Muslim speakers](https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists). Some of the persons on the list are also listed - as the article makes it clear - as being hate groups, but only when they are so cited. > > The hate group list from reading this article is a seperate thing. Thank you. I was going to post about this, but you beat me to it. If one wants to read what the SPLC actually has to say about [Ali](https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#ali) and [Nawaz](https://www.splcenter.org/20161025/field-guide-anti-muslim-extremists#nawaz), there’s the links. Meanwhile, the SPLC continues to do good works. For instance, they take state and county governments to court for throwing people in jail for inability to pay fines, which the Supreme Court ruled unconstitutional a long time ago, but has been happening again in recent years, especially as localities turn over collection of fines to private operators. Even if they made a bad call here (I don’t think they did), this would just say they’re not perfect. They’re still doing too much good stuff to stop supporting them because of one misstep. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588.md?page=3)