# The Southern Poverty Law Center has jumped the shark **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 4, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588 "2016-11-04T05:28:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/82 "2016-11-04T23:00:26Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :sigh:, again: Read the list again, the SPLS is not putting them in the hate groups list, but in an article about Anti-Muslim Extremists, Not hate groups as your OP insisted, that line BTW did come from Harris and others, not you. So the SPLC didn’t put Ali and Nawaz on a list of hate groups. They just stuck them on a list of “hateful” individuals. That’s a distinction without a difference. No matter what they stuck them on, they’re still cunts for doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/83 "2016-11-04T23:02:12Z")
> [@1stworldview125](#): > > Do mail order bride really exist? > > The answer is Yes, and No, it really depends on your definition of mail order brides. > > The historical roots of the mail-order bride industry that emerged in the 1800s in the American frontier: European American men found financial success in the migration West, but the one thing that was missing was the company of a wife. Very few women lived there at this time, so it was hard for these men to settle down and start a family. They attempted to attract women living back East; the men wrote letters to churches and published personal advertisements in magazines and newspapers. In return, the women would write to the men and send them photographs of themselves. Courtship was conducted by letter, until a woman agreed to marry a man she had never met.[9] Many women wanted to escape their present way of living, gain financial security and see what life on the frontier could offer them. Most of these women were single, but some were widows, divorcees or runaways. > > During most of the 20 century, the mail order bride continued with the main method of women putting themselves in catalogs. Then men would view the women’s profile, then for a fee order the women address. These became the main order bride companies business method in the 20 the century, with the fall of the Soviet union and cheap airfares, these companies spread from Asian to Eastern Europe, mainly now the Ukraine > > Today most women do not leave their countries to escape poverty but to seek a man they believe will be a good husband and provider, that is family orientated and that looks at women with more respect than in many countries around the world. > > With the advent of the intent, the mail order bride industry boomed into a billion dollar industry, Now with a few pictures and website, anyone could be in the mail order bride business. With hundreds of ma and pop shops opening over the last two decade, Most who were clients of one of the three original mail order bride companies, A Foreign Affair (AFA), Anastasia and EC, The owner of [ForeignLadies.com](http://ForeignLadies.com) met his wife while working on a tour from [loveme.com](http://loveme.com), A Foreign affair still today in the largest in the industry, each week they offer tours to one of a dozen countries China to Peru and everywhere in between. The industry grew so fast in 1998, Senator Cantwell of Washington state introduces legislation to regulate the mail order bride industry. and a new law Called: “International Marriage Brokers Act” or IMBRA was born. With stiff regulations, many companies like Anastasia moved from Bride business to Fantasy Chat. > Although the industry strongly objects to the term mail order brides, saying there is no difference if man in New York courting a woman from California through [match.com](http://match.com), then courting a woman from Russia. Critics like the Terra Justice Center has a different out look, saying these men take advantage of women oversea. But studies have contradicted these statement and show abuse is actually lower in these marriages. See “International Marriages - A Report to Congress” > > So why do thousands of women join these site: Elena Kosalova of the Ukraine says, “Men here are not serious about family, they expect women to stay home while they go out each night with their friends and drink. I want a man who s serious, mature and who wants to be with his wife and family. I have met Americans in the past and they seem more reliable and mature.” Elena rejects the idea she is a “Mail Order Bride” > > Why do men seek a mail order bride: James Goodwin, 43 of South Carolina says, " I meet women here all the time, but I just can not find the values I am looking for… I have dated here for more than 20 years, After three days in Kiev, I was shock at how many beautiful women I met that I would consider marrying, now I am just trying to reduce my options and pick the right one. It truly is the fastest way to find a beautiful sincere women. > > So what is the cost, the cost can range greatly from site to site and from type of service, AFA or [loveme.com](http://loveme.com) offers everything from letter writing, tours and executive services for the rich and famous. As little as $12 to as much as $25,000. The owner John Adams say’s the best way is just go over and meet then women, avoid letters and never waste money on expensive chat. You can meet up to 1000 beautiful women in just 10 days, it will be the greatest vacation of your life. Joe Nail of [ForeignLadies.com](http://ForeignLadies.com), has stayed with the traditional Letter Writing, Each letter is $7.50 and but say they do plan on offer some limited chat option. > > Many sites like,[foreignwomen.com](http://foreignwomen.com), [PhilippineSinges.com](http://PhilippineSinges.com), and [UkraineSsingles.com](http://UkraineSsingles.com), that offer simple unlimited membership for $29 per month. These type of site also target pacific regions, like Asia, Latin America or Eastern Europe. > > There is also a site for mail order grooms; [SingleMenOnline.com](http://SingleMenOnline.com), that caters to men publishing their photos in hopes to meet an American Bride. > > James Dunn, who is a ghost writer for review sites says "You get what you pay for. Membership sites to do not screen the members at all. so you never know who you really are writing, The big boys require the women to apply in person in one of their local offices. The companies that offer group tours will introduce you to hundreds of beautiful women, for the cost of $1000 to $3000 depending on location, about the same you would pay for any vacation. Several companies also do individual tours these can range from $750 to $1500, But only arrange one to one introductions, Always make sure they are biased in the USA or EU, Most of the complaints come from small agencies that are desperate and need to make as much as they can from you. Just a note, if the company is based in an a foreign country you will have no recourse if they do not follow through. > So do mail order brides exist, If you belive a if a woman is a mail order bride if she lives in another county then Yes, But if you believe it just another dating option like any on-line dating site, matchmaker or dating service, than No. . It really seems like a doubled standard in the world, If a women meets a man in Italy or France, then oh that is so romantic, but if a man meets a women in Philippines, than … Reported as spam. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/84 "2016-11-04T23:03:28Z")
> [@Memnon](#): > > So the SPLC didn’t put Ali and Nawaz on a list of hate groups. They just stuck them on a list of “hateful” individuals. That’s a distinction without a difference. No matter what they stuck them on, they’re still cunts for doing it. Exactly. One wonders why anyone even bothers to make this hairsplitting argument. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/85 "2016-11-04T23:37:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > So, just to be clear: by “maybe not the majority”, you mean “a tiny minority, way less than one percent of the world’s Muslims”? Also, I was asking what percentage of women born to Muslim families _in predominantly Muslim countries_ could live the way I described. Since the U.S. is very far from being a predominantly Muslim country, and the example you gave was Dearborn, I take it you are implicitly acknowledging that the real answer to my question is “0.0%”. Considering Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Cote D’Ivoire, Morocco, and many other countries (I’ve been to some, have family from one, and have spoken to people from all of them), then I’d say a pretty significant number. Tens of millions of people, and maybe hundreds of millions. Big cities in all those countries have lots of progressive lifestyles possible for women; not all women, but some. They also have backwards parts. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2016, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/86 "2016-11-04T23:54:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Cote D’Ivoire, Morocco, and many other countries (I’ve been to some, have family from one, and have spoken to people from all of them), then I’d say a pretty significant number. Tens of millions of people, and maybe hundreds of millions. Big cities in all those countries have lots of progressive lifestyles possible for women; not all women, but some. They also have backwards parts. Huh. Well, I have not been to the places you named although I’ve seen evidence of the “backwards parts” in many cases. Can you show some evidence? A newspaper article about Moroccan lesbians, say, or even a personal blog of a Malaysian atheist? Of the countries you named, Indonesia is by far the most populous, and since an Indonesian guy [spent half of Obama’s second term in prison for advocating atheism on Facebook,](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/asia/indonesian-who-embraced-atheism-landed-in-prison.html?_r=0) I have to think they are disqualified. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/87 "2016-11-05T00:06:14Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Exactly. One wonders why anyone even bothers to make this hairsplitting argument. …because your OP is a lie. It could have been a simple mistake. Most people in this thread have given you the benefit of the doubt. You claimed that The Southern Poverty Law Center had placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups. This isn’t true. Here is the SPLC list of hate groups. [https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/groups](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/groups) Both Ali and Nawaz are not on that list. Maybe you thought that Ali and Nawaz were on the SPLC list of extremists. Shall we take a look? [https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual) Well gosh darnnit, they aren’t on that list either. But they are on a list. Where is this list? [https://www.splcenter.org/resources?f[0]=splc\_resource\_types%3APublication](https://www.splcenter.org/resources?f%5B0%5D=splc_resource_types%3APublication) Oh…its in their publications. And scanning through the other publications…oh! They are blog posts! Its a blog! SlackerInc is loosing his shit in the pit over a blog post! Yes: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz are on a “list.” But they aren’t on “THE LIST.” Its an important distinction. If you can acknowledge that distinction, and if you can acknowledge that the wording of the OP was mistaken and apologise for it, then all good. But if you can’t: well, we are in the pit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/88 "2016-11-05T00:42:21Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Huh. Well, I have not been to the places you named although I’ve seen evidence of the “backwards parts” in many cases. Can you show some evidence? A newspaper article about Moroccan lesbians, say, or even a personal blog of a Malaysian atheist? Of the countries you named, Indonesia is by far the most populous, and since an Indonesian guy [spent half of Obama’s second term in prison for advocating atheism on Facebook,](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/asia/indonesian-who-embraced-atheism-landed-in-prison.html?_r=0) I have to think they are disqualified. Here’s a [Malaysian atheist blog](http://malaysianatheist.blogspot.com/). I just skimmed it – it looks like is hasn’t been active for several years. The content seems a mix of mundane stuff and politics, and they seem to consider their self a dissident. I’d agree that it could be dangerous to publicly advocate for gay rights and the like in these countries (though in big cities in prominently Muslim parts of West Africa, like Abidjan or Lagos, it’s different –[this article](http://www.ibtimes.com/gay-nigeria-lgbt-life-one-worlds-most-homophobic-nations-1405130) about being gay in Lagos makes me think of the US a few decades ago, not Saudi executioners), but I think that has more to do with authoritarian government (it’s just as dangerous to publicly dissent from the party line) than Islam. I’ve cited the link before (and I’ll look for it if anyone’s interested), but American Muslims are significantly more tolerant of gay rights than American evangelical Christians, or American Mormons, based on polling. This shows that it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion – a country ruled by Dearborn, MI would be a progressive Islamic country that LGBT people would be comfortable in. A country ruled by Vidor, TX would be far less so. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/89 "2016-11-05T00:45:14Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …because your OP is a lie. > > It could have been a simple mistake. Most people in this thread have given you the benefit of the doubt. You claimed that The Southern Poverty Law Center had placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups. This isn’t true. QFT > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Oh…its in their publications. And scanning through the other publications…oh! They are blog posts! Its a blog! SlackerInc is loosing his shit in the pit over a blog post! > > Yes: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz are on a “list.” But they aren’t on “THE LIST.” Its an important distinction. > > If you can acknowledge that distinction, and if you can acknowledge that the wording of the OP was mistaken and apologise for it, then all good. But if you can’t: well, we are in the pit. Exactly. As noted the ones highlited may indeed come as personally suffering from Muslim extremists acts against them, but that does not give them carte blanche to pour gasoline into the fire by grosly misrepresenting all Muslims. [https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/10/26/splc-publishes-media-guide-countering-prominent-anti-muslim-extremists](https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/10/26/splc-publishes-media-guide-countering-prominent-anti-muslim-extremists) > [@](#): > > The newly released Field Guide to Anti-Muslim Extremists contains profiles of 15 prominent anti-Muslim extremists, many of whom are associated with organizations identified by the SPLC as hate groups. > > “We wrote this manual because Muslims in America continue to be vilified by a network of anti-Muslim extremists spreading baseless and damaging lies and we think the media can play a role in helping to stop it,” said Heidi Beirich, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center. > > A shocking number of anti-Muslim, self-described “experts” are seen regularly in the media, where they spread falsehoods that too often go uncontested. Their rhetoric has toxic consequences, from promoting xenophobia, to poisoning democratic debate, to inspiring hate violence. > > “We hope journalists will use this guide to learn more about these extremists and the damage they cause to society and either deny them a public platform altogether or be better prepared to publicly challenge their hateful rhetoric and misinformation,” Beirich said. “The public really should know who these extremists are and the damaging impact they have with a platform to spread hate and bigotry.” So, there is no intention for this list to be a “fatwa” this is a list to put the media on notice to be critical of gross generalization, misinformation and xenophobia. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/90 "2016-11-05T01:19:53Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Yes: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz are on a “list.” But they aren’t on “THE LIST.” Its an important distinction. > > If you can acknowledge that distinction, and if you can acknowledge that the wording of the OP was mistaken and apologise for it, then all good. But if you can’t: well, we are in the pit. I’m not familiar with their hierarchies of lists, and I still think you are hairsplitting. But I believe you that there is some sort of hierarchy. Does that qualify as “acknowledging that distinction”? If so, great. If not, I don’t care and fuck you. My OP was certainly not a “lie”. You calling it a lie is the actual lie (or at least error). If there is any other “lie” or “simple mistake” (you used both terms in the same post), it is on Sam Harris’s part. Here is the first sentence of my OP: > [@](#): > > I just learned from Sam Harris’s podcast that the SPLC has placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups. And here is the relevant section of the [podcast](https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-borders-of-tolerance), starting at 55:43 (emphasis mine): > [@](#): > > OK, well, that was Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and I hope you got a sense of just what a good person she is, and that her focus is on the rights of women and on human freedom globally. And I hope you noticed that she said that she thought we have a moral obligation to bring in Muslim refugees who we can vet. I doubt you detected in anything she said a hatred for groups of people, or really any view that could be construed as bigotry. > > So if you got a sense of Ayaan over the course of this hour, you’ll appreciate how deranged the left has become, ethically speaking, in the West. Because the very day we recorded this conversation, the Southern Poverty Law Center, this flagship institution to combat white supremacist groups–this is the organization started by Morris Dees that has sued the Ku Klux Klan and other neo-Nazi groups, that is relied upon by journalists to summarize the nefarious works of white supremacists and other hate groups in the US–this institution today just declared Ayaan and my friend Majid Nawaz (who I wrote my book _Islam and the Future of Tolerance_ with), just declared both of them along with, I think, 13 other people, to be anti-Muslim extremists, **actually grouping them alongside groups like the KKK.** This is how crazy the apologetics for Islam have grown. > > And this is how destructive it is of people’s reputations. You know, a Google search of Ayaan and Majid right now returns this judgment about them: that they are merchants of hate. Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/91 "2016-11-05T01:46:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’ve cited the link before (and I’ll look for it if anyone’s interested), but American Muslims are significantly more tolerant of gay rights than American evangelical Christians, or American Mormons, based on polling. This shows that it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion – a country ruled by Dearborn, MI would be a progressive Islamic country that LGBT people would be comfortable in. A country ruled by Vidor, TX would be far less so. We seem to have shifted away from _women’s_ rights, which is really Hirsi Ali’s wheelhouse. But okay, sure: if American Muslims are more progressive about gay rights, one might expect (or at least hope) for this to be true about women’s rights as well. Still, your broader assumption–that “it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion” (by which I assume you mean that Muslims who live in progressive democratic countries tend to adopt those values) just isn’t borne out by the data. Everything I have seen suggests that the population of Muslims in the U.S. is indeed about the most progressive you’ll find anywhere. But this doesn’t seem to hold true for Muslim populations in Western Europe, even though those countries are widely seen (by people like Bernie Sanders) as much more progressive than the U.S., and examples we should be following ([with good reason, I might add](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-g-dolan/charts-bernie-europe-socialism_b_9238622.html)). Here, from the Guardian (mos def not a right wing site) is some discussion of a poll of British Muslims taken just a few months ago: > [@](#): > > Extensive polling conducted by ICM suggests that in most cases attitudes held by the British Muslim population do not broadly differ from those held by the population at large, but there are significant differences when it comes to some issues such as homosexuality and women’s rights.[…] > > Of those questioned, 88% said Britain was a good place for Muslims to live in, and 78% said they would like to integrate into British life on most things apart from Islamic schooling and some laws. > > However, when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population.[…] > > Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Two-thirds (66%) said they completely condemned people who took part in stoning adulterers, and a further 13% condemned them to some extent. Meaning 21% didn’t condemn them at all. :eek: I’m actually \*more \*freaked out by their holding these views simultaneously. “Oh yeah, Britain’s a great country for Muslims, we’re very happy here. We just need to tinker with a few laws so gays don’t have so many rights, and of course women have to be obedient to their husbands.” ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/92 "2016-11-05T01:58:58Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I’m not familiar with their hierarchies of lists, and I still think you are hairsplitting. …well if all you knew about the SPLC was something that you watched on a fictional TV drama 15 years ago, then yeah, of course you are not familiar with their “hierarchies of lists.” But now you know. > [@](#): > > But I believe you that there is some sort of hierarchy. Does that qualify as “acknowledging that distinction”? If so, great. If not, I don’t care and fuck you. “Hierarchy” is the wrong word. The SPLC is primarily known for their list of hate groups. Which is why your OP is so misleading. When you stated that you learnt these people had been added to the SPLC list of hate groups: everyone took you at your word and assumed you were talking about the list of hate groups that the SPLC has been curating with the assistance of the FBI since 1981. But they weren’t added to that list. They were included on another list on a blog post. It is a fucking huge distinction. > [@](#): > > My OP was certainly not a “lie”. It most certainly is now. > [@](#): > > You calling it a lie is the actual lie (or at least error). If there is any other “lie” or “simple mistake” (you used both terms in the same post), it is on Sam Harris’s part. Here is the first sentence of my OP: Oh harden up you big plonker. People wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt. > [@](#): > > And here is the relevant section of the [podcast](https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/the-borders-of-tolerance), starting at 55:43 (emphasis mine): Sam Harris doesn’t make the same claim that you make in the OP. As weasel worded as Sam Harris’s sentence is: it isn’t the same thing you said. Stop blaming someone else for the words you chose to use. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/93 "2016-11-05T02:41:18Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Sam Harris doesn’t make the same claim that you make in the OP. As weasel worded as Sam Harris’s sentence is: it isn’t the same thing you said. > > Stop blaming someone else for the words you chose to use. Yes, “actually grouping them alongside groups like the KKK” is \*completely \*different from “placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups.” :rolleyes: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > all you knew about the SPLC was something that you watched on a fictional TV drama 15 years ago Again, the question that seems to come up so often around here: poor reading comprehension, or purposeful dishonesty? Since, after all, what I actually said was: > [@](#): > > I have had great respect for this organization over many years. Just the other day I was watching a stellar West Wing episode… Which clearly indicates that I have had a more than passing familiarity with the organization for a long time, and that the “fictional TV drama” (which BTW cited real life cases) was watched mere \*days \*ago, not “15 years ago”. Interesting, then, the “words you chose to use”. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/94 "2016-11-05T02:42:09Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > No they are not. And a woman who left a fundamentalist Baptist church or Catholicism or Mormonism and complained about the patriarchal way she was raised would not get this kind of heat. This is pure fiction > [@](#): > > And your list of Muslim countries where women are allowed to be single and live alone would be comical if it weren’t so sad . No, it is merely an immediate refutation of your stupid, bigotted ignorant claim, which we can understand had as much thinking and understandng as your idiot OP that could not even get the basic facts right from parroting someone else > [@](#): > > What percentage of the world’s Muslim population do those cover? Oh some 90 per cent… > [@](#): > > Did not look like a large one. Did not look like a large one… which only does to show you know nothing at all about what you are loudly proclaiming about and are simply an ignorant bigotted idiot. But since we have seen this many times, it is not a surprise. > [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Baloney. People would be tripping over themselves to explain how it was a subset of Christianity and how mainstream Christianity doesn’t believe that etc. They would support her but warn people about not painting all of Christianity with such a broad brush. Happens with Hasidic Judaism as well- people seem to have no problem distinguishing between fundamentalism and not fundamentalism. indeed. it is seen all the time here even > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I have a lot of sympathy for Ayaan Hirsi Ali based on her life experience . the life experience of growing up in the upper class priviledge and going to excellent schools, then going to the EU on her family money and getting the asylum claim for residency under the false circumstances? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well if all you knew about the SPLC was something that you watched on a fictional TV drama 15 years ago, then yeah, of course you are not familiar with their “hierarchies of lists.” he is the OP also of this [interesting OP in making a weasel argument for a coup d’etat against Trump](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=809149) as well as the person who had the OP speculating when the west should take apartheid type actions against the muslim minorities… > [@](#): > > Sam Harris doesn’t make the same claim that you make in the OP. As weasel worded as Sam Harris’s sentence is: it isn’t the same thing you said. > > Stop blaming someone else for the words you chose to use. so he is a whiny stupid person who gets upset when he stupidity is highlighted. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/95 "2016-11-05T02:45:59Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > the life experience of growing up in the upper class priviledge and going to excellent schools, then going to the EU on her family money and getting the asylum claim for residency under the false circumstances? I was thinking about the genital mutilation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/96 "2016-11-05T02:47:49Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > We seem to have shifted away from _women’s_ rights, which is really Hirsi Ali’s wheelhouse. But okay, sure: if American Muslims are more progressive about gay rights, one might expect (or at least hope) for this to be true about women’s rights as well. > > Still, your broader assumption–that “it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion” (by which I assume you mean that Muslims who live in progressive democratic countries tend to adopt those values) just isn’t borne out by the data. Everything I have seen suggests that the population of Muslims in the U.S. is indeed about the most progressive you’ll find anywhere. But this doesn’t seem to hold true for Muslim populations in Western Europe, even though those countries are widely seen (by people like Bernie Sanders) as much more progressive than the U.S., and examples we should be following ([with good reason, I might add](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/edwin-g-dolan/charts-bernie-europe-socialism_b_9238622.html)). > > Here, from the Guardian (mos def not a right wing site) is some discussion of a poll of British Muslims taken just a few months ago: > > Meaning 21% didn’t condemn them at all. :eek: > > I’m actually \*more \*freaked out by their holding these views simultaneously. “Oh yeah, Britain’s a great country for Muslims, we’re very happy here. We just need to tinker with a few laws so gays don’t have so many rights, and of course women have to be obedient to their husbands.” It’s not just the progressive values – it’s how well a society integrates immigrants. Western Europe is perhaps more progressive on some issues than the US, but the US blows them away in terms of welcoming and integrating immigrants into our society, even with all the Trumpers out there. It’s written into the DNA of the country, unlike many European countries. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/97 "2016-11-05T02:53:18Z")
Absolutely. America is based on ideas. European countries are homelands of particular peoples, and I think to a much greater extent than us they have a right to maintain their national character. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/98 "2016-11-05T03:02:56Z")
Of course, the god given christian right to be judenfrei and muslamischfrei, to maintain the national character and not be polluted by the semetic and non european christian influences. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/99 "2016-11-05T03:03:06Z")
**Ramira** , I hope for your sake that English is not your first language. I suspect it is not–and if I am right, your basic fluency is not that bad (although it’s probably not as good as mine in French). But given that relatively decent level of fluency, the shallowness in how you express your ideas is really not excusable. Unless maybe you are quite young? There does seem something about your style that suggests an early adolescent mindset. If you are both ESL and less than 14 years old, you could be forgiven for your apparent simplemindedness. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s not just the progressive values – it’s how well a society integrates immigrants. Western Europe is perhaps more progressive on some issues than the US, but the US blows them away in terms of welcoming and integrating immigrants into our society, even with all the Trumpers out there. It’s written into the DNA of the country, unlike many European countries. I would say that is highly arguable. The reason many European countries are getting pushback from the right now is that they have taken far more Syrian refugees than the US has. And the US, in the middle portions of the 20th century, had one of the least welcoming immigrant policies in the world, which was also the case for a significant period of the 19th century. It can be argued that the Ellis Island phase was more the exception than the rule. ETA: > [@adaher](#): > > Absolutely. America is based on ideas. European countries are homelands of particular peoples, and I think to a much greater extent than us they have a right to maintain their national character. I think this is absolutely a fair point (as long as you overlook how Native Americans were screwed on this basis). And if it’s not, why isn’t everyone giving Japan major shit for doing the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/100 "2016-11-05T03:06:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > If you are both ESL and less than 14 years old, you could be forgiven for your apparent simplemindedness. Since you are the person who wrote the extensive idiocy in your [great Trump coup d’etat argument](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=809149), I am very amused that you think you are capable of insulting someone on this level. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2016, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588/101 "2016-11-05T03:08:30Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course, the god given christian right to be judenfrei and muslamischfrei, to maintain the national character and not be polluted by the semetic and non european christian influences. I don’t believe a country should be allowed to kick out citizens who are already there, but they certainly have the right to a) decide who can and can’t enter their country, and b) expect them to accept the cultural values of their new home if they are allowed in. If we don’t accept that as a basic right of nations and cultures, then 100 years from now Mecca could very well look like Hong Kong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-southern-poverty-law-center-has-jumped-the-shark/770588.md?page=6)