So the SPLC didn’t put Ali and Nawaz on a list of hate groups. They just stuck them on a list of “hateful” individuals. That’s a distinction without a difference. No matter what they stuck them on, they’re still cunts for doing it.
Reported as spam.
Exactly. One wonders why anyone even bothers to make this hairsplitting argument.
Considering Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Cote D’Ivoire, Morocco, and many other countries (I’ve been to some, have family from one, and have spoken to people from all of them), then I’d say a pretty significant number. Tens of millions of people, and maybe hundreds of millions. Big cities in all those countries have lots of progressive lifestyles possible for women; not all women, but some. They also have backwards parts.
Huh. Well, I have not been to the places you named although I’ve seen evidence of the “backwards parts” in many cases. Can you show some evidence? A newspaper article about Moroccan lesbians, say, or even a personal blog of a Malaysian atheist? Of the countries you named, Indonesia is by far the most populous, and since an Indonesian guy spent half of Obama’s second term in prison for advocating atheism on Facebook, I have to think they are disqualified.
…because your OP is a lie.
It could have been a simple mistake. Most people in this thread have given you the benefit of the doubt. You claimed that The Southern Poverty Law Center had placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups. This isn’t true.
Here is the SPLC list of hate groups.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/groups
Both Ali and Nawaz are not on that list.
Maybe you thought that Ali and Nawaz were on the SPLC list of extremists. Shall we take a look?
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual
Well gosh darnnit, they aren’t on that list either.
But they are on a list. Where is this list?
https://www.splcenter.org/resources?f[0]=splc_resource_types%3APublication
Oh…its in their publications. And scanning through the other publications…oh! They are blog posts! Its a blog! SlackerInc is loosing his shit in the pit over a blog post!
Yes: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz are on a “list.” But they aren’t on “THE LIST.” Its an important distinction.
If you can acknowledge that distinction, and if you can acknowledge that the wording of the OP was mistaken and apologise for it, then all good. But if you can’t: well, we are in the pit.
Here’s a Malaysian atheist blog. I just skimmed it – it looks like is hasn’t been active for several years. The content seems a mix of mundane stuff and politics, and they seem to consider their self a dissident.
I’d agree that it could be dangerous to publicly advocate for gay rights and the like in these countries (though in big cities in prominently Muslim parts of West Africa, like Abidjan or Lagos, it’s different –this article about being gay in Lagos makes me think of the US a few decades ago, not Saudi executioners), but I think that has more to do with authoritarian government (it’s just as dangerous to publicly dissent from the party line) than Islam.
I’ve cited the link before (and I’ll look for it if anyone’s interested), but American Muslims are significantly more tolerant of gay rights than American evangelical Christians, or American Mormons, based on polling. This shows that it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion – a country ruled by Dearborn, MI would be a progressive Islamic country that LGBT people would be comfortable in. A country ruled by Vidor, TX would be far less so.
QFT
Exactly.
As noted the ones highlited may indeed come as personally suffering from Muslim extremists acts against them, but that does not give them carte blanche to pour gasoline into the fire by grosly misrepresenting all Muslims.
So, there is no intention for this list to be a “fatwa” this is a list to put the media on notice to be critical of gross generalization, misinformation and xenophobia.
I’m not familiar with their hierarchies of lists, and I still think you are hairsplitting. But I believe you that there is some sort of hierarchy. Does that qualify as “acknowledging that distinction”? If so, great. If not, I don’t care and fuck you.
My OP was certainly not a “lie”. You calling it a lie is the actual lie (or at least error). If there is any other “lie” or “simple mistake” (you used both terms in the same post), it is on Sam Harris’s part. Here is the first sentence of my OP:
And here is the relevant section of the podcast, starting at 55:43 (emphasis mine):
We seem to have shifted away from women’s rights, which is really Hirsi Ali’s wheelhouse. But okay, sure: if American Muslims are more progressive about gay rights, one might expect (or at least hope) for this to be true about women’s rights as well.
Still, your broader assumption–that “it’s a lot more about the society than about the religion” (by which I assume you mean that Muslims who live in progressive democratic countries tend to adopt those values) just isn’t borne out by the data. Everything I have seen suggests that the population of Muslims in the U.S. is indeed about the most progressive you’ll find anywhere. But this doesn’t seem to hold true for Muslim populations in Western Europe, even though those countries are widely seen (by people like Bernie Sanders) as much more progressive than the U.S., and examples we should be following (with good reason, I might add).
Here, from the Guardian (mos def not a right wing site) is some discussion of a poll of British Muslims taken just a few months ago:
Meaning 21% didn’t condemn them at all. :eek:
I’m actually *more *freaked out by their holding these views simultaneously. “Oh yeah, Britain’s a great country for Muslims, we’re very happy here. We just need to tinker with a few laws so gays don’t have so many rights, and of course women have to be obedient to their husbands.”
…well if all you knew about the SPLC was something that you watched on a fictional TV drama 15 years ago, then yeah, of course you are not familiar with their “hierarchies of lists.”
But now you know.
“Hierarchy” is the wrong word. The SPLC is primarily known for their list of hate groups. Which is why your OP is so misleading. When you stated that you learnt these people had been added to the SPLC list of hate groups: everyone took you at your word and assumed you were talking about the list of hate groups that the SPLC has been curating with the assistance of the FBI since 1981. But they weren’t added to that list. They were included on another list on a blog post. It is a fucking huge distinction.
It most certainly is now.
Oh harden up you big plonker. People wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Sam Harris doesn’t make the same claim that you make in the OP. As weasel worded as Sam Harris’s sentence is: it isn’t the same thing you said.
Stop blaming someone else for the words you chose to use.
Yes, “actually grouping them alongside groups like the KKK” is *completely *different from “placed Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Maajid Nawaz on their list of hate groups.” :rolleyes:
Again, the question that seems to come up so often around here: poor reading comprehension, or purposeful dishonesty? Since, after all, what I actually said was:
Which clearly indicates that I have had a more than passing familiarity with the organization for a long time, and that the “fictional TV drama” (which BTW cited real life cases) was watched mere *days *ago, not “15 years ago”. Interesting, then, the “words you chose to use”. :dubious:
This is pure fiction
.
No, it is merely an immediate refutation of your stupid, bigotted ignorant claim, which we can understand had as much thinking and understandng as your idiot OP that could not even get the basic facts right from parroting someone else
Oh some 90 per cent…
Did not look like a large one… which only does to show you know nothing at all about what you are loudly proclaiming about and are simply an ignorant bigotted idiot. But since we have seen this many times, it is not a surprise.
indeed.
it is seen all the time here even
the life experience of growing up in the upper class priviledge and going to excellent schools, then going to the EU on her family money and getting the asylum claim for residency under the false circumstances?
he is the OP also of this interesting OP in making a weasel argument for a coup d’etat against Trump as well as the person who had the OP speculating when the west should take apartheid type actions against the muslim minorities…
so he is a whiny stupid person who gets upset when he stupidity is highlighted.
I was thinking about the genital mutilation.
It’s not just the progressive values – it’s how well a society integrates immigrants. Western Europe is perhaps more progressive on some issues than the US, but the US blows them away in terms of welcoming and integrating immigrants into our society, even with all the Trumpers out there. It’s written into the DNA of the country, unlike many European countries.
Absolutely. America is based on ideas. European countries are homelands of particular peoples, and I think to a much greater extent than us they have a right to maintain their national character.
Of course, the god given christian right to be judenfrei and muslamischfrei, to maintain the national character and not be polluted by the semetic and non european christian influences.
Ramira, I hope for your sake that English is not your first language. I suspect it is not–and if I am right, your basic fluency is not that bad (although it’s probably not as good as mine in French). But given that relatively decent level of fluency, the shallowness in how you express your ideas is really not excusable. Unless maybe you are quite young? There does seem something about your style that suggests an early adolescent mindset. If you are both ESL and less than 14 years old, you could be forgiven for your apparent simplemindedness.
I would say that is highly arguable. The reason many European countries are getting pushback from the right now is that they have taken far more Syrian refugees than the US has. And the US, in the middle portions of the 20th century, had one of the least welcoming immigrant policies in the world, which was also the case for a significant period of the 19th century. It can be argued that the Ellis Island phase was more the exception than the rule.
ETA:
I think this is absolutely a fair point (as long as you overlook how Native Americans were screwed on this basis). And if it’s not, why isn’t everyone giving Japan major shit for doing the same thing?
Since you are the person who wrote the extensive idiocy in your great Trump coup d’etat argument, I am very amused that you think you are capable of insulting someone on this level.
I don’t believe a country should be allowed to kick out citizens who are already there, but they certainly have the right to a) decide who can and can’t enter their country, and b) expect them to accept the cultural values of their new home if they are allowed in.
If we don’t accept that as a basic right of nations and cultures, then 100 years from now Mecca could very well look like Hong Kong.