# The Soviets copied... (space shuttle, Concorde etc) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 16, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607 "2022-02-16T16:08:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/1 "2022-02-16T16:08:26Z")
Back in the day I used to hear complaints that the Tu-144 was a rip-off of the Concorde and the Buran was a rip-off of the American space-shuttle. My question is, given the performance requirements and the various stresses in the operations of those vehicles, and associated engineering requirements, how different can competitors’ products actually be from each other, assuming there weren’t rip-offs? ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/2 "2022-02-16T16:13:22Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > how different can competitors’ products actually be from each other, assuming there weren’t rip-offs? And then there’s the old question, “If a counterfeit painting is virtually indistinguishable from the original, doesn’t that mean the painter had the same skill level?” I mean, building a _copy_ of the space shuttle still requires the ability to _build a space shuttle_. You can’t pull that off in your garage, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/3 "2022-02-16T16:16:36Z")
The pedigree for a lot of this stuff probably goes back to the same handful of Nazi engineers. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/4 "2022-02-16T16:24:24Z")
A lot of folks over the years have said that the Soviets simply copied western designs, but if you really look into the details it’s obvious that this was not true. That said, it’s pretty clear that the Soviets were spying on us for design ideas, and we were probably spying on them as well. The basic layout of the Tu-144 almost certainly comes from spying, but internally it’s a much different aircraft. For example the cooling for different systems uses completely different methods and the flight control system is completely different. As for the Buran, the Soviets learned of the U.S. Space Shuttle and went into a bit of a panic over the idea of a “space plane” that could carry a military payload and could change its orbit so that it could drop that payload on Moscow at a moment’s notice, so they wanted the same thing. The KGB managed to steal a lot of documents about the Space Shuttle, which is why the Buran ended up so similar. So in both cases it was that the design goal was the same, and while they did not just rip off the designs, they did borrow enough design ideas and basic methodologies that the end results were very similar. If you want to make a Concordski, by necessity it’s going to look a lot like the Concorde. A lot of the design of the Buran came from stolen documents about the Shuttle, so it’s design was even more similar to its Western counterpart. > [@Horatius](#): > > building a _copy_ of the space shuttle still requires the ability to _build a space shuttle_ . There’s a lot of truth in that. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/5 "2022-02-16T16:54:53Z")
Have a look at the Tupolev-4. Reminds you of something? > **[Tupolev Tu-4](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4)** > > Pages pour les contributeurs déconnectés en savoir plus > > Cet article est une ébauche concernant un aéronef et le domaine militaire. > Vous pouvez partager vos connaissances en l’améliorant (comment ?) selon les recommandations des projets correspondants. > Cet article ne cite pas suffisamment ses sources (juillet 2012). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/6 "2022-02-16T16:56:38Z")
For the shuttle it does appear like there was spying going on, however for it’s time, if you wanted to make a reusable flyable, orbital and land-able brick that can carry military sized payloads your options may be somewhat limited in design choice and even if designing from scratch it would make sense to start with a photo of your neighbors proven working brick. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/7 "2022-02-16T17:29:37Z")
> [@velomont](#): > > how different can competitors’ products actually be from each other To outsiders an airplane is an airplane, but apparently Airbus and Boeing have huge design differences that affect every aspect of piloting. > **[Airbus vs Boeing Design Philosophy | FlightDeckFriend.com](https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/ask-a-pilot/differences-between-airbus-and-boeing)** > > We review the big differences between Airbus and Boeing, specifically with regards to their design philosophy which determines how the pilots operate them ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/8 "2022-02-16T17:33:07Z")
> [@FrenchDunadan](#): > > Have a look at the Tupolev-4. Reminds you of something? > > [Tupolev Tu-4 — Wikipédia](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4) In the case of the Tu-4, the Soviets created it by reverse-engineering the B-29. They had four actual examples of the American plane, which had made emergency landings in the Soviet Union during WWII, but the Soviets then refused to return the planes to the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/9 "2022-02-16T17:36:33Z")
As far as the Buran/Space Shuttle are concerned, keep in mind that those are just the reusable orbiters of a wider system that includes more components. The Space Shuttle had its external tank and the solid rocket boosters; the Buran was designed to be piggy-backed onto the Energia, which was a two-stage liquid fuel rocket in its own right. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/10 "2022-02-16T17:43:48Z")
The Russians stole and copied computer chip designs in the 80s. > **[Molecular Expressions: The Silicon Zoo - Steal The Best](https://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html)** > > This page contains a photomicrograph of the surface of a Digital VAX microprocessor containing a phrase written in Russian. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/11 "2022-02-16T18:49:56Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > As far as the Buran/Space Shuttle are concerned, keep in mind that those are just the reusable orbiters of a wider system that includes more components. The Space Shuttle had its external tank and the solid rocket boosters; the Buran was designed to be piggy-backed onto the Energia, which was a two-stage liquid fuel rocket in its own right. There are some basic design decisions that are logical - the shuttle used its own engines and being reusable, the engines were not throw-away; just the simple tank. This also meant the tank did not have to be excessively strong, and the butt end of the shuttle had to hang off the side. The delta wing was an obvious area to weight design, since larger area would slow faster and distribute the resulting heat. A flat bottom for the shuttle was less likely to have heat and turbulence issues. And so on… Same as why most cars, or bicycles, or coffee cups tend to look similar in several aspects. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2022, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-soviets-copied-space-shuttle-concorde-etc/959607/12 "2022-02-16T19:28:39Z")
I think the Russians and Chinese have long been happy to steal whatever concepts they can, and whatever industrial espionage they can, but develop their own designs using that. So they often look and behave somewhat similar without necessarily being outright copies. And to a large extent, the performance requirements and the technology of a given era are the biggest constraints to what something looks like. I mean, the B-70, the TU-144 and the Concorde are all more or less similar looking, and they’re from three different countries. But they’re all intended to operate in sustained supersonic flight, so they’re going to have a lot of similar design characteristics, without necessarily copying each other.