# The Specter of Socialism’s Slow Collapse. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 30, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074 "2009-09-30T04:43:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/21 "2009-09-30T20:09:58Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I find this badly researched. … > There are 3 major political parties in the UK. > **By US standards** they rank as: > > Labour = ‘Communist’ > Liberal Democrat = ‘Socialist’ > Conservative = ‘Left Wing’ Leaving aside the badly researched (I am not necessarily in disagreement as such), I don’t think that the above is accurate, even on own (US) terms. Taking a few policy items out of context, maybe, but as a package I think you would find Labour and Lib Dems in one package (in the Democrats category, although yes both would be labelled socialist by real extremists) and the Conservative Party as something like the “left” wing of the US Republican party. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/22 "2009-09-30T20:57:09Z")
We’re doomed? Again? Rats, sackcloth and ahses just doesn’t go well with my complexion, I’m an “Autumn”… ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/23 "2009-09-30T22:03:12Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > It says absolutely nothing of the sort. > > What it says is that from a “right wing” (or at least American) point of view, there is a belief that government would do a poor job of providing said health care. While doubtless there are some callous people who do not care a whit for their fellow citizens, it does not follow that this is the reason for opposition. I think rather more generally it is a skepticism, certainly not without real foundation, that government can properly provide health care for the population, and a belief the end result would be worse. In other word, “nuh-uh”. How well does an empty parking lot provide health care to people? Only the government can “provide” free money that low-income people can use to pay for health care (and let’s make sure to distinguish between insurance and hospitals). Private businesses only _sell_ insurance or _sell_ medical services to people who can afford it. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/24 "2009-10-01T09:57:21Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Leaving aside the badly researched (I am not necessarily in disagreement as such), I don’t think that the above is accurate, even on own (US) terms. Taking a few policy items out of context, maybe, but as a package I think you would find Labour and Lib Dems in one package (in the Democrats category, although yes both would be labelled socialist by real extremists) and the Conservative Party as something like the “left” wing of the US Republican party. Well, let’s try it then shall we? I struggle to think of policies in which the UK Conservatives sit to the right of _Obama_, let alone McCain. In fact, all three UK parties largely occupy the same ‘middle’ ground - UK ground, that is. This ground is far, _far_ left of the US ‘middle’ ground, such that all 3 UK parties pretty much occupy the left of the _Democratic_ party, IMO. If Cameron got into the White House, you guys would be begging Dennis Kucinich to save you from the limey Marxist. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/25 "2009-10-01T10:09:20Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > In other word, “nuh-uh”. No, not in other words. I merely pointed out the gross distortion of the actual “anti” view on gov’t health care, which takes the view that government provision is a worse end choice for the general population. This may well be wrong - it is not my view (that is the anti view), but I am not so childish as to have to render the anti view in strawmen terms. > [@](#): > > How well does an empty parking lot provide health care to people? Parking lots do not provide health care period, empty or not, I’m afraid this is just incoherent. I’m not interested in arguing against government intervention in health care, so you can save that for someone invested in that view. ---
**Author:** ![TorpedoTed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/da6949/32.png) [@TorpedoTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TorpedoTed)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/26 "2009-10-01T12:15:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And Angela Merkel (Christian Democrat, center-right) has been chancellor of Germany since 2000 and just got re-elected. 2005, actually. Also it’s worth noting that although Merkel was re-elected (and still enjoys good personal popularity on the whole) the CDU in fact _lost_ a fair amount of support this election–the SPD simply lost far, far more (it was the three smaller parties, the Greens, the Left, and above all the FDP that truly gained the most ground this time around). Secondly, the CDU under Merkel has actually adopted number of traditionally social-democratic or at least broadly more “leftist” policies–environmentalism being a particularly noticeable one (well, at least before the economy went downhill…)–a factor which (among many other things) no doubt contributed to the SPD’s lack of direction and inability to assert themselves as of late, thus leading to their pitiful results in the recent election. Also, to give you an idea of the completely different playing field in Europe as compared to the USA–Guido Westerwelle, chairman of the FDP, and thus almost certainly future vice chancellor under Merkel, is openly gay (something which quite clearly has not effected his popularity all that much even among more conservative voters). Can you imagine something even _remotely_ similar occuring with the Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/27 "2009-10-01T16:00:46Z")
We have a Stone specter of a slow socialist collapse. How about an extremely fast capitalist collapse. We spent a couple trillion trying to save the world economies from damage that unregulated capitalism wreaked. We destroyed the financial security of many nations all at the same time. That certainly is a high recommendation for capitalism ,don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/28 "2009-10-01T17:02:30Z")
TorpedoTed, exactly. In Germany the new thing is the new left party Die Linke, formed by people who were disappointed by the reforms that the Social Democrats made (and the Ex-SED Eastern German rulers…) and are much further to the left. One of their billboards simply reads [Tax Wealth](http://die-linke.de/typo3temp/GB/d673b5da3a.jpg). As a result, the Social Democrats are weakened, but the whole political spectrum moved to the left. The new coalition have adopted many traditionally left positions (eg the aforementioned environmental stuff; UHC is supported by every party here since Weimar) and though they of course have promised tax breaks, noone thinks they are really feasible right now. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/29 "2009-10-03T01:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > TorpedoTed, exactly. > In Germany the new thing is the new left party Die Linke, formed by people who were disappointed by the reforms that the Social Democrats made (and the Ex-SED Eastern German rulers…) and are much further to the left. One of their billboards simply reads [Tax Wealth](http://die-linke.de/typo3temp/GB/d673b5da3a.jpg). One of the advantages of a parliamentary system is that party factions can split into new parties, but still collectively wield power if they can form a coalition. Although, I haven’t heard anything about the “Left Party” and the old SPD being able to form a ruling coalition this time around. In this country a party that wins only 30% of the vote is completely irrelevant due to our system of winner-take-all. > [@](#): > > One of their billboards simply reads [Tax Wealth](http://die-linke.de/typo3temp/GB/d673b5da3a.jpg). If only! In this country wealth has become inviolate, because it has so much power. In my county (Los Angeles) we actually voted a half-cent sales tax to fund transit improvements. It seems that property and income can no longer be taxed, so the poor and middle class end up having to vote to tax themselves to fund needed infrastructure. This tax passed by a two-thirds majority, and I was happy that it passed; all the same it is a regressive tax that impacts the poor far more than it does the rich. [/quote] ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/30 "2009-10-03T01:44:56Z")
btw [Undecided] Adrian’s username seems to wreak havoc with quote delimiters! ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/31 "2009-10-03T02:32:54Z")
Isn’t the most overriding factor competence in government? In Canada, we (speaking in general, electorate terms) kicked out the Liberals due to corruption issues, and the leaders they’ve brought us since have not impressed us as guys we’d trust to run the whole shebang. At the same time, we haven’t seen fit to trust Harper with all the keys yet, and while some of that is due to electoral math and roadblocks, it seems silly to say we’ve moved rightwards as a country when the Conservative party here can’t get elected as a majority when that used to be commonplace. Ideology is one thing, but eventually you want the garbage picked up. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/32 "2009-10-03T02:42:31Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Well, let’s try it then shall we? I struggle to think of policies in which the UK Conservatives sit to the right of _Obama_, let alone McCain. In fact, all three UK parties largely occupy the same ‘middle’ ground - UK ground, that is. This ground is far, _far_ left of the US ‘middle’ ground, such that all 3 UK parties pretty much occupy the left of the _Democratic_ party, IMO. What do you think of the current leaders of the Liberal Democrats who contributed to the [Orange Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Book:_Reclaiming_Liberalism)? Where would you place them? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/33 "2009-10-03T09:34:09Z")
It seems pretty likely that the Conservative party will be voted in in the next General Election but you know what? They’re not about to get rid of Social medecine,not now nor at any time in the conceivable future. So if the O.P. is trying to to use European political trends as a stick to beat Obama with then he’s most definitely barking up the wrong tree. ---
**Author:** ![\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/eada6e/32.png) [@\_Undecided\_Adrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_Undecided_Adrian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2009, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/34 "2009-10-03T09:52:16Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > One of the advantages of a parliamentary system is that party factions can split into new parties, but still collectively wield power if they can form a coalition. Although, I haven’t heard anything about the “Left Party” and the old SPD being able to form a ruling coalition this time around. In this country a party that wins only 30% of the vote is completely irrelevant due to our system of winner-take-all. That’s true, of course. In the federal parliament, the SPD has ruled out a coalition with Die Linke for now, however. In the state parliaments, that’s not true even now, and the SPD actually gained there a little.And the ruling two parties have an actual (small) majority (so red-red-green is a minority still). Though as I said, they were moving to the left as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/35 "2009-10-04T18:12:10Z")
> [@Struan](#): > > What do you think of the current leaders of the Liberal Democrats who contributed to the [Orange Book](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orange_Book:_Reclaiming_Liberalism)? Where would you place them? The Lib Dems who are going all free market are just after expanding Lib Demsupporters, they’re trying to peel socially liberal but free market voters away from the Tories. They’re all things to all people, in the south they’re compassionate conservatives, in the north they’re to the left of Labour, they’re all multicultural in London. They can get away with this all-things-to-all-people bs because they’ve got no chance of being elected and so the media don’t bother calling them on it. Of the two parties with a chance of being elected you’re not going to find any major policy point that wouldn’t fit happily in the democratic wing of the US Democratic party. Maybe there is one but I can’t think of it. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/36 "2009-10-04T21:48:59Z")
[Socialists Are Victorious in Greece](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125463553190862261.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_LEFTTopStories) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/37 "2009-10-04T22:18:55Z")
Well, yeah, Greece, but they have no real longstanding tradition of democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/38 "2009-10-04T22:24:31Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > It seems pretty likely that the Conservative party will be voted in in the next General Election but you know what? > > They’re not about to get rid of Social medecine,not now nor at any time in the conceivable future. > So if the O.P. is trying to to use European political trends as a stick to beat Obama with then he’s most definitely barking up the wrong tree. Please tell me where I tried to ‘beat up’ on the Obama administration. My question was really whether this apparent shift to the right would make Obama’s foreign policy more difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/39 "2009-10-04T22:43:52Z")
I think you guys are underplaying the shift to the right. Look a the last elections for the EU. As[The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/07/eu-elections-social-democrats) says: > [@](#): > > **Misery for social democrats as voters take a turn to the right** > > Europe’s mainstream centre-left parties suffered humiliation last night when four days of voting in the EU’s biggest-ever election concluded with disastrous results for social democrats. > > Results from the national rounds of the European parliament election across the 27 member states also showed support for centre-right Christian democrats diminishing in places, but nonetheless notching up handsome victories in several key states. > > In Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland, Austria, Bulgaria, Hungary and the Czech Republic, the centre right won the elections, with stunning defeats for the left in certain cases. As for Germany, the SPD suffered its worst result in any election its ever participated in. The party that gained the most support was the right-wing Free Democrats, so the new government will move even more to the right than it was. In Austria, the Social Democrats suffered the biggest loss in their history. In Spain, the socialists lost to the conservatives. Sarkozy clobbered the left in France, despite his personal popularity being quite low. In Hungary, the right-wing opposition won over the socialists in a landslide. The EU parliament will now have 110 more seats belonging to the center right than to the socialists. And right now, for the upcoming election in the UK, the Conservatives are trending towards forming a majority government, with the Labour party taking a shellacking. These seem like fairly significant results. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074/40 "2009-10-04T22:52:52Z")
I’m still not seeing a scenario where “America moves to the left of Europe”. As Europe moves more to the right, especially in foreign policy, perhaps it will be easier to reach consensus between the US and our European allies. But still, any shift to the right is relative, as others have pointed out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-specter-of-socialism-s-slow-collapse/512074.md?page=3)