# 'The Star Wars saga is really about Darth Vader' ... Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 4, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400 "2005-05-04T17:21:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/81 "2005-05-06T00:50:57Z")
Darn. Posted before I was ready “… but still within the framework of a democratic system.” However, the provincial governors gradually grow in power and influence, cutting out the Senate more and more, until they finally prod his Imperial Majesty to remove the legislature permanently and rule by fiat. In theory this makes the Emperor an absolute ruler, but under the thumb of his own bueracrats. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/82 "2005-05-06T01:36:59Z")
Been a while since I read the novelization, but IIRC, Paplatine used assorted corrupt thingies to get himself elected Chancellor, then used fear, intimidation, and terror to get himself crowned Emperor. After that, he became increasingly isolated from his subjects and basically let corrupt bureaucrats run the show. I don’t think it was so much that he was a puppet as it was now he was Supreme Ruler of the Galaxy, he just didn’t want to be bothered with the paperwork anymore. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/83 "2005-05-06T02:38:25Z")
I dunno, look at Vader’s prominence on every movie poster. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/84 "2005-05-06T02:53:12Z")
The prequels are about Palpatine and the fall of the Republic, the original trilogy is about Luke and the fall of the Empire, but the saga as a whole has only one consistent theme, and that is Anakin’s story. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/85 "2005-05-06T03:15:30Z")
> [@Priam](#): > > It could quite easily be that Tarkin and his fellow governors pressured the Emperor to dissolve the Republic in order to increase their own powers. For all we know, he could’ve been envisioned in a similar light as the King of England: the ability to appoint and dissolve the legislative body, but still within the framework of a democratic system. It’s been a looong time since I read the novelization, but I don’t remember any discussion of the Emperor at all. He gets that one oblique mention about dissolving the Senate, and other than that nothing. Everything about the original _Star Wars_ is vague, and Darth Vader is no exception. In the book he’s introduced as “the Dark Lord of the Sith” but at no point is it explained what the Sith is; I assumed it was a place. It’s never clear whether he’s Tarkin’s equal or a subordinate. No explanation is given for the travelling iron lung he lives. He’s not a minor character, but we learn nothing about him aside from his being Kenobi’s traitorous pupil and his deep love of popping out to make somebody’s life hell every few minutes. He’s definitely not the focus of the finished movie. It’s possible he was the central character in a too-long early script, but if so that was cut and saved for the sequels. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/86 "2005-05-06T03:25:52Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > You sure about that? Out of laziness, I’d like to see something on that. This site has the complete prelude to the novelization of the first movie: [http://michaelthompson.org/mal/whills.html](http://michaelthompson.org/mal/whills.html) In particular: > [@](#): > > Aided and abetted by restless, power-hungry individuals within the government, and massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. > > Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. > > Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the Imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/87 "2005-05-06T05:04:57Z")
> [@Exgineer](#): > > The Emperor concealing his Sith-ness actually makes sense. > > People will accept an ordinary Emperor a lot more readily than an Evil Wizard Emperor. Also, in Episode III the Jedi are blamed for an uprising against the government – and, actually, the entire Confederate problem, given Dooku’s prominence as a Jedi. Emperor Palpatine would be foolish to then reveal himself as a Force wielder. But, having a pet “Jedi” (whether the average citizen knows the difference between a Jedi, a dark Jedi and a Sith is unclear) who is, basically, the Emperor’s pet attack dog, makes him a lot scarier. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/88 "2005-05-06T05:06:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > He’s a twisted old man who doesn’t want his subordinates to know _anything_ about him, probably because he fears they would find a way to use it against him. Only Vader knows the real deal, and he won’t take a step against him. Except, of course, he does take steps against him, in Episode V. The Sith are inherently always attempting to undermine each other. Both Vader and Palpatine struggle to convince Luke to side with them and eliminate the other. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/89 "2005-05-06T06:10:10Z")
> [@Murcielago](#): > > In Eps. 1-3 there is an attempt to do similar things with the story of Anakin, this time as a tragedy, but it doesn’t quite work IMO. I never saw the idea of a “fatal flaw” in his character defined properly. OK, he has feelings of loss and fear, but it is not clear how these things come to dominate his decisions. He’s just…well…kind of a dickhead. And wouldn’t the ultimate tragedy be that the Chosen One was in fact a dickhead? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DataZak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@DataZak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataZak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/90 "2005-05-06T06:20:24Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > And wouldn’t the ultimate tragedy be that the Chosen One was in fact a dickhead? 😃 IMO, the Chosen One is Luke not his dad. Luke brought balance to the Force in Ep. 6. Qui Gonn was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@The\_Hook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hook)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/91 "2005-05-06T07:23:05Z")
No, no… he was the original Chosen One, but once he became evil, those midichlorians of his fled into his sperm count. They sensed something was wrong with that dude and actually had a hard time finding the other sperm… the man was a dickhead! 😛 But really, we don’t know what that balance is and I’ll guess we’ll never know anything about it other than it sounds cool. Now, we’re discussing if Vader’s a badass on Episode IV, right? That’s part of the discussion, I gather. What was intended and what was actually there I think it’s difficult to debate since we’re lucky we got such a fun ride out of that mess of a film. Star Wars was very much like Jaws, only that Star Wars was doing in the tech department what nobody else had done 10 times as much. It must’ve been really stressful for Lucas. I was watching it today (the horribly changed, heavily “contrasted” DVD version) and, as Luke and the gang are being crushed by the garbage disposal, several Stormtroopers come in to where 3PO and R2 are hiding, only that the door doesn’t open fully and one of them hits his head on the edge. 😃 I had never noticed that. 😃 It’s funny with these films and their special effects, you keep noticing cool stuff and real embarrassments at the same time. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DataZak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@DataZak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataZak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/92 "2005-05-06T08:36:07Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > \… and, as Luke and the gang are being crushed by the garbage disposal, several Stormtroopers come in to where 3PO and R2 are hiding, only that the door doesn’t open fully and one of them hits his head on the edge. 😃 I had never noticed that. 😃 It’s funny with these films and their special effects, you keep noticing cool stuff and real embarrassments at the same time. 😃 And Lucas had Jango Fett do the same thing in _AOTC_. Sort of a pararell thing. Only difference is, when the stormtrooper did it, it was a genuine goof and thus much funnier. ---
**Author:** ![DataZak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@DataZak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataZak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/93 "2005-05-06T08:40:53Z")
I mean “ **parallel** ” :smack: ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/94 "2005-05-06T18:12:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The “oh, it was supposed to be three trilogies” thing is something Lucas made up later in the game. I don’t knoiw. he keeps flip-flopping on that, so I half expect, even though he now says there was no intetion, to see 7,8,and 9 in about 10 years. I guess it’s because it’s hard for me to believe much of anything lucas says anymore. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/95 "2005-05-07T01:22:28Z")
i was taken with vader from the first moment he came on screen. i think it was the cape. of course, because i liked him, after seeing the movie hundreds of times in the theatr, i came away with the idea that he was a bit, um, gentle with leia on thier meeting on the ship. he seemed a bit reluctant with the torture devise, somewhat troubled about using the death star on alderaan, and a bit comforting, when alderaan explodes, to leia. no doubt i was seeing him through the cape. i didn’t have a problem with the luke/ leia sibling thing. if you are not raised as siblings, and meet as adults, you could have non sibling feelings for each other. there have been cases of siblings that were adopted out didn’t know they were siblings and have ended up married before they found out. with sealed adoptions it would be rather easy. i would think luke and leia’s birth and placements did not have the usual or any paper trail. only through the force, or being told by sen. organa, obi-wan, or yoda, would anyone know. r2d2 was from naboo if i remember correctly, and was padme’s. c3p0 was from tatooine and was anakin’s. r2d2 was never obi-wan’s. so him saying i don’t remember owning this droid was right. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/96 "2005-05-07T05:29:54Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Also, in Episode III > > the Jedi are blamed for an uprising against the government – and, actually, the entire Confederate problem, given Dooku’s prominence as a Jedi. Emperor Palpatine would be foolish to then reveal himself as a Force wielder. But, having a pet “Jedi” (whether the average citizen knows the difference between a Jedi, a dark Jedi and a Sith is unclear) who is, basically, the Emperor’s pet attack dog, makes him a lot scarier. Indeed… it seems that Palpy has built up this entire story that the Jedi are the ones who are going to be selling out the Republic to the Seperatists (that’s why Anakin has to eliminate them all), and that they are getting too powerful. And the Emperor has gotten the only Jedi who is truely committed to the Empire. It’d be a WTF for people, IMO, to find out the Emperor was a Jedi (force user, whatever) all along. They’d be scared after being told the Jedi were enemies of the Republic that the head guy is a Jedi. Having a Jedi as the Emperor’s servent is ok, however, because he’d prevent the Jedi from getting too powerful again. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Kenneth_Noisewater)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/97 "2005-05-07T06:43:15Z")
It’s easy enough to rationalize, what with the end of Return of the Jedi (that film as a whole, really), but it’s much easier to doubt that Vader was anything but a flat character in Eps. IV and V. All he did was crush things and talk about how rad the dark side is. Certainly you can say that Luke’s quest is basically Vader’s redemption, but it’s not like he started out as some noble hero. What had he to redeem other than his obvious turn and incessant brooding? He was either a dull kid or a whiny teenager in I and II. Had, say, Obi-wan turned out evil and Vader old, wise, and dead, now that might be interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Skott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Skott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skott)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/98 "2005-05-07T06:50:26Z")
> [@RumMunkey](#): > > I’ve always believed Lucas wrote Star Wars as ‘a random episode from a serial you’ve not yet seen any other episodes’. I think it was in one of the commentaries that he said that he really enjoyed watching Asian movies, coming in and not knowing anything about the culture or history and having to deduce and extrapolate those from what’s going on. He wanted to create that same feeling in his movies. But I’m sure the serial flavor (get it?) was also part of it. I strongly believe that the failing of the first two movies is that they’re _not_ in the semi-serialized format of the original three. > [@](#): > > In order to make it more serial-esque, he laid out (however loosely only he knows) the backstory so the viewer had the feeling they were jumping into the middle of an ongoing series. Very loosely. Just an outline. In the making of TPM, he talks about that, having to go back and basically start over based on a handful of notes. And if you go through the history of his scripts, Luke is always the main character, whatever his last name (Starkiller, Skywalker, whatever). He’s always different in each iteration, though, whether he’s a gruff 40-something general, a father of four, or a naive teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/99 "2005-05-07T06:50:31Z")
> [@Dr. Kenneth Noisewater](#): > > Certainly you can say that Luke’s quest is basically Vader’s redemption, but it’s not like he started out as some noble hero. What had he to redeem other than his obvious turn and incessant brooding? He was either a dull kid or a whiny teenager in I and II. Well said, and that’s the big problem with making this version of Vader the central character. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400/100 "2005-05-07T18:16:22Z")
> [@The Hook](#): > > So? What’s wrong with putting together the pieces of the puzzle? Again, going with the LotR analogy (which is valid regardless of who’s a better writer), there was no mention of Sauron in The Hobbit or Gollum’s true origins. The book is about Bilbo’s journey with the dwarves to defeat a fire-breathing menace and how he ends up in a battle of five armies. However, when you read LotR, you see certain things from a different perspective once you go back to it. That it doesn’t please you doesn’t mean it isn’t perfectly valid. > > I still see no reason why there should be any mentions of the emperor being a Sith Lord or to have Vader come out right away and say, “My name is Anakin Skywalker. I am your father. Prepare to die!”. And I don’t think we should care if things were intended from the beginning to be this way or that way. “Expanding upon” means taking things as they are and see what else you can do with them. I take your point, but I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing out that the story wasn’t originally intended the way it ended up. When JRRT started writing _LOTR_ he didn’t have the idea that it would be about the quest to destroy the One Ring. If you read the early drafts and Christopher Tolkien’s commentary upon them, you can see that JRRT didn’t really have an idea about where the story was going other than that Bilbo or some other Hobbit was going to have AN ADVENTUREtm. I really think it is cool to read The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings in light of each other and see how they work with each other. I especially like how there are bits that don’t quite match up but still sort of work when you look at them as being seperate historical sources. One was written by Bilbo, primarily, and told mostly from the naive perspective of a provincial Shire inhabitant, and the other was written, primarily, by Frodo and is much more informed. Additionally, both books were revised and edited several times and have come down to us in English translation from Tolkien. The Lord of the Rings, dealing as it does with stuff of more import, was revised and edited by a scribe of Gondor and so is stylistically much different from The Hobbit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-star-wars-saga-is-really-about-darth-vader-huh/302400.md?page=6)