# The Starlost. Time to try again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 14, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234 "2008-05-14T02:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/1 "2008-05-14T02:26:29Z")
It’s been three decades since _The Starlost_. Harlan Ellison received a Best Original Screenplay award from the Writers Guild for it. But that was for the script he wrote; not what the filmmakers turned out. (I have to admit that I liked the show. But then I was just a kid.) Edward Bryant’s _Phoenix Without Ashes_ is great. So is Ellison’s account of how things went so terribly awry that he had his name removed from the project. (Too bad for Ben Bova he couldn’t do the same.) In a nutshell, Earth is threatened with destruction; so a gigantic space ship is built to take people to another planet. Different societies are housed in their own ‘biospheres’ 50 miles in diameter where they can continue their cultures. (It’s a long, slow trip so this is a multi-generational vessel.) Somewhere early on a disaster happens that kills the crew. So for some long period (generations?) the biosphere inhabitants have been on their own. Most of them seem to have forgotten they’re on a ship, and believe that their spheres are their ‘worlds’. Kier Dullea is an Amish guy who gets into hot water with the Elders, who want to kill him. He accidentally finds a way out of the biosphere and into the ship proper. He’s accompanied by a guy (Garth) and a girl (Dullea’s girlfriend). They discover that 1) They’re on a space ship; 2) The crew is long-dead, and 3) They are on a collision course with a star. As they look for the bridge/control room they go into other biospheres and discover cultures that have been isolated for centuries. As I said, the Bryant book (based on Ellison’s original script) was very good. Assuming that Ellison would allow it, and with more filmmakers that ‘get’ serious science fiction nowadays, do you think a new _Starlost_ would be any good? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/2 "2008-05-14T02:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] (Too bad for Ben Bova he couldn’t do the same.) [/quote] Don’t pity Bova too much – he used the experience to write _The Starcrossed_, a very funny novel. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/3 "2008-05-14T02:39:27Z")
[QUOTE=RealityChuck] Don’t pity Bova too much – he used the experience to write _The Starcrossed_, a very funny novel. [/QUOTE] From the Amazon review: > [@](#): > > Wooden actors, slashed budgets, scripts from Canadian high school students, hookers-turned-starlets, a director snorting drugs and mob financing sunk into sports betting… I’m going to have to try to find this. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/4 "2008-05-14T02:52:30Z")
You really do. I re-read my copy at least once a year. Hilarious. And Ben’s portrayal of the Harlan character is amazingly accurate, given the libel laws in California. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/5 "2008-05-14T02:54:10Z")
That’s an excellent idea. The original series had such promise, and it could be done so well now. Who could have believed that something as dopey as the original “Battlestar Galactica” could have become an excellent show? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/6 "2008-05-14T03:02:26Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] It’s been three decades since _The Starlost_. Harlan Ellison received a Best Original Screenplay award from the Writers Guild for it. But that was for the script he wrote; not what the filmmakers turned out. (I have to admit that I liked the show. But then I was just a kid.) Edward Bryant’s _Phoenix Without Ashes_ is great. So is Ellison’s account of how things went so terribly awry that he had his name removed from the project. (Too bad for Ben Bova he couldn’t do the same.) In a nutshell, Earth is threatened with destruction; so a gigantic space ship is built to take people to another planet. Different societies are housed in their own ‘biospheres’ 50 miles in diameter where they can continue their cultures. (It’s a long, slow trip so this is a multi-generational vessel.) Somewhere early on a disaster happens that kills the crew. So for some long period (generations?) the biosphere inhabitants have been on their own. Most of them seem to have forgotten they’re on a ship, and believe that their spheres are their ‘worlds’. Kier Dullea is an Amish guy who gets into hot water with the Elders, who want to kill him. He accidentally finds a way out of the biosphere and into the ship proper. He’s accompanied by a guy (Garth) and a girl (Dullea’s girlfriend). They discover that 1) They’re on a space ship; 2) The crew is long-dead, and 3) They are on a collision course with a star. As they look for the bridge/control room they go into other biospheres and discover cultures that have been isolated for centuries. As I said, the Bryant book (based on Ellison’s original script) was very good. Assuming that Ellison would allow it, and with more filmmakers that ‘get’ serious science fiction nowadays, do you think a new _Starlost_ would be any good? [/QUOTE] I’ve heard of the book, never had heard about that series. What was bad about it? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/7 "2008-05-14T03:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I’ve heard of the book, never had heard about that series. What was bad about it? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Basically, clueless studio execs. They had no idea how to make a SciFi series, and kept making bone-headed decisions. I remember this from Ellison’s rant on the subject: The biospheres were supposed to be 50 miles wide. The Suits told Ellison that they could only shoot three miles. After that it got murky. Ellison told them to look outside. Of course it looks murky! Then he told them to shoot three miles and call it 50 miles. The audience isn’t going to know. So the Execs shot three-mile exteriors… only the called it three miles! Ellison said something to the effect of, ‘If the biospheres are only three mile in diameter, the Elders only have to join hands to find the guy!’ So stupid stuff like that, plus budget cutting. [EDIT](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Starlost#Problems_in_development_and_production): > [@](#): > > Problems began when Fox was unable to sell the show to the networks and decided to produce it for syndication. With the show not being in prime time, Fox started trying to find ways of cutting the budget, moving production to Toronto – there was also a writers’ strike in the US at that time, which did not help. Most of the Toronto production team had never done television drama. As the filming went on, Ellison grew increasingly disenchanted with the progressive dumbing down of the story, budget cuts, and crucial details changed. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/8 "2008-05-14T04:41:10Z")
The Wikipedia page leads to a “fan site” for the series that actually has the [writer’s “bible” for the series](http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/star.html). Makes for great reading - I’d like to have seen that show! ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/9 "2008-05-14T11:12:39Z")
I was moving the weekend Bova was at a con nearby. I was dying to ask him about the show and get my copy of Starcrossed signed. I wouldn’t recommend the book to everyone but when you’re in on the joke (as most people who seek it out are) it’s hysterical. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/10 "2008-05-14T11:43:00Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I’ve heard of the book, never had heard about that series. What was bad about it? -FrL- [/QUOTE] You can’t just blame the studio execs for their horrible execution; it was a bad idea from the start. By Ellison’s own admission, it was a hackneyed premise that goes back to the 1930’s; he just threw out the first thing that came to mind. The execs, being totally ignorant of science fiction, thought it was startlingly original. You could make a good show about a generation ship (which is what that’s called). But the complication that some bizarre event left the current generation not knowing that they’re on a spaceship, but nevertheless left the huge ship functional and self-sustaining, is a bit much to swallow. (Robert Heinlein made it work, but it’s too silly to use yet again.) Also, the basic premise of going to the stars in a generation ship because the Earth is uninhabitable doesn’t make sense – unless something goes wrong with the Sun. So, it’s a silly premise from Hugo Gernsback science fiction, and not worth wasting money and artistic resources on, when there’s a world of good science fiction waiting to be put on the screen. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/11 "2008-05-14T11:58:55Z")
I watched some of the original shows last year. Think of 70’s scifi series with a love child trying to be Amish, and then futuristic. I don’t think this will ever be good for a long term series. The best you can get out of this is a one year series. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/12 "2008-05-14T12:03:20Z")
Ellison’s script was published in the George Zebrowski’santhology **Faster than Light** circa 1982 (although, ironically, the point is that the ship _isn’t_ “faster than light” – that’s why it’s a Generation Starship) Unfortunately, that anthology is probably harder to find today than “Phoenix Without Ashes”. If you can, find a copy of PWA and read Ellison’s introduction. It’ll explain what was wrong about the series in Ellison’s inimitable style. If you want to see what the series was like (I missed it on TV), there’s quite a bit of it on **YouTube**. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ad7895/32.png) [@Just\_Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/13 "2008-05-14T12:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] If you can, find a copy of PWA and read Ellison’s introduction. It’ll explain what was wrong about the series in Ellison’s inimitable style. [/QUOTE] If it’s the essay I’m thinking of I first read it in _The Essential Ellison_. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/14 "2008-05-14T14:21:02Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] You could make a good show about a generation ship (which is what that’s called). But the complication that some bizarre event left the current generation not knowing that they’re on a spaceship, but nevertheless left the huge ship functional and self-sustaining, is a bit much to swallow. (Robert Heinlein made it work, but it’s too silly to use yet again.) [/QUOTE] IIRC, in Heinlein’s “Universe,” some of the inhabitants of the ship (the Muties) still knew that they were on a ship – it was just the other society (where the protagonist originated) that had lost that knowledge (they didn’t have any contact with the Muties other than occasionally trying to kill them). That made it a bit easier to suspend disbelief. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/15 "2008-05-14T14:23:44Z")
If, this time around, Harlan has **complete** creative control – what happens? Has he still got the chops that made him (in)famous? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/16 "2008-05-14T14:33:43Z")
Y’know, I have only the vaguest childhood recollection of this series. Thanks for reminding me - no, really! I think this could be done well nowadays, but doubt that Ellison has the Hollywood clout or interpersonal skillz to get it done without an influential patron. Maybe Ron Moore could make it his next big project? ST:TOS did a generation-ship story where the “crew” had forgotten they were even aboard a ship, in “For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky” (still the record-holder for the longest episode title in any ST series). ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/17 "2008-05-14T15:17:44Z")
There are plenty of Generation Starship stories where the plot is that the people on board have forgotten they’re on a ship. In fact, aside from stories where the ship has already reached its destination, tyhis seems to be practically the only kind of story anyone ever writes about such ships. But I believe Heinlein’s “Universe” (only later followed by “Common Sense”) was the first to do so. Ellison’s plan to use it as the basis for a TV show was, I think , a good idea. For TV you needed low-budget ideas that still allowed a lot of variations, and in Ellison’s plan you could potwentially visit a different “bio-dome” every week. getting you into a completely different situation with different people. It coulda been a contenda. Now I’m not so sure – the idea’s been done too often, and now people have different expectations, and TV SF has bigger budgets. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/18 "2008-05-14T16:40:12Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] There are plenty of Generation Starship stories where the plot is that the people on board have forgotten they’re on a ship. In fact, aside from stories where the ship has already reached its destination, tyhis seems to be practically the only kind of story anyone ever writes about such ships. But I believe Heinlein’s “Universe” (only later followed by “Common Sense”) was the first to do so. [/QUOTE] I think Murray Leinster wrote a story with a similar premise in the 1930’s. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/19 "2008-05-14T19:46:05Z")
BTW, is it possible to get the original series on DVD or VHS? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234/20 "2008-05-14T20:01:21Z")
> [@](#): > > think Murray Leinster wrote a story with a similar premise in the 1930’s. I did a quick search. This site claims the first was Don Wilcox’ “The Voyage that lasted 600 Years” > **[Generation ships](https://www.bewilderingstories.com/issue94/generation_ships.html)** > > Generation ships are doomed to terminal boredom. The Wiki Article doesn’t list any Leinster stories: > **[Generation ship](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_ship)** > > A generation ship, generation starship, or world ship is a hypothetical type of interstellar ark, a multi-generational space habitat and starship. > It is a design to allow travel times of hundreds to thousands of years to reach nearby stars. The original occupants of a generation ship would grow old and die, leaving their descendants to continue traveling. > Rocket pioneer Robert H. Goddard was the first to write about long-duration interstellar journeys in his "The Ultimate Migration" (1918). In ... So we’re both off, apparently. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starlost-time-to-try-again/449234.md?page=2)