# The Starving Artist plan to restore America to its former glory! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 26, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960 "2010-03-26T23:14:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/281 "2010-03-31T20:18:15Z")
> [@](#): > > 'Tis true, ‘tis true. His ability to completely ignore the problems caused by Prohibition\* and the societal changes during that time\*\* (and even suggest that we should do it again for alcohol!) and totally disregard the fact that the same method has caused the very same problems again today is nothing short of astounding. But it must be the liberals’ fault. > > \*hint: gangs, gang warfare, drive-by shootings, organized crime syndicates, corruption, loss of civil liberties > \*\*hint2: speakeasies, jazz, increased tolerance of minorities, acceptance of gays, women’s rights and sexual liberation, “sexy” clothes and a generally-decried “ruination of society” by the flappers & their ilk - good lord, the damn decade is called “The Roaring Twenties” fer cryinoutloud For that matter, today’s gangsters are amateurs. They worry about the police. In the Twenties, they OWNED the police, and the mayor, and the judges. And yes, there were drive by shootings. They just used a different car and a different gun. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/282 "2010-03-31T20:33:04Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > Sorry, I thought you were making a funny. You know, because you were commenting about changing the words to more gender-inclusive lyrics, apparently sort of in response to SA’s anti-feminist screed. And you mentioned that later group that made the song famous, but neglected to mention the female member of the trio. It made me snicker. I understand. Certainly Mary Travers was significant to the sound and the success of the group. I know I thought she was drop dead gorgeous and had the hots for her back in the day, and her voice was divine. I left her out of my note only because she was more vocalist than music writer or arranger. > [@redtail23](#): > > 'Tis true, ‘tis true. His ability to completely ignore the problems caused by Prohibition\* and the societal changes during that time\*\* (and even suggest that we should do it again for alcohol!) and totally disregard the fact that the same method has caused the very same problems again today is nothing short of astounding. But it must be the liberals’ fault. \ Yes, by some undefined, clearly supernatural means that defies citation. And is only apparent to our buddy **SA**. > [@redtail23](#): > > I wouldn’t give up sex and breathing, if I were you. 😃 Don’t worry. I’m coming to enjoy the sound of \<_chirp_\> \<_chirp_\> \*\*SA \*\*making a substantive reply. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/283 "2010-03-31T21:19:21Z")
> [@CannyDan](#): > > I understand. Certainly Mary Travers was significant to the sound and the success of the group. I know I thought she was drop dead gorgeous and had the hots for her back in the day, and her voice was divine. I left her out of my note only because she was more vocalist than music writer or arranger. She didn’t do much writing or arranging, but I suspect that, in this particular instance, she _may_ have had something to do with the change. 😉 But mostly, I thought you did it on purpose and wanted to acknowledge your clever joke. Sometimes things strike me very funny that no one else gets. Just give me your best “ok, weirdo” look and go on - that’s what everyone else does. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/284 "2010-03-31T21:20:21Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > For that matter, today’s gangsters are amateurs. They worry about the police. In the Twenties, they OWNED the police, and the mayor, and the judges. And yes, there were drive by shootings. They just used a different car and a different gun. But they weren’t LIBERALS, and they used POLITE LANGUAGE, so that was all OK, see? ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/285 "2010-03-31T22:16:46Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > She didn’t do much writing or arranging, but I suspect that, in this particular instance, she _may_ have had something to do with the change. 😉 > > But mostly, I thought you did it on purpose and wanted to acknowledge your clever joke. Sometimes things strike me very funny that no one else gets. Just give me your best “ok, weirdo” look and go on - that’s what everyone else does. 😛 No, I’m not discounting you by any means. Thanks for the compliment, but I wasn’t being clever. (Some would say I’m incapable of that, anyway.) Your point about the conjoined history of alcohol and organized crime is spot on. And you’re almost certainly quite right about Mary’s influence. Maybe for that very reason, I think this is an interesting and even an appropriate sidebar. The original authors of the Hammer Song, Pete and Lee, were surely liberals by anyone’s definition. Their politics was left leaning so far that ‘socialist’ wouldn’t have been wide of the mark. That’s what got them blacklisted by McCarthy in the first place, their association with dirty Commies. So I think their membership in the vast liberal conspiracy is irrefutable. But despite being card carrying liberals at the, shall we say, cutting edge of contemporary social change, they were in many ways a product of their own times. The phrasing “…all of my brothers…” came right out of depression-era protest songs a la Woody Guthrie. It had a liberal bent, and was used in the most inclusive and even expansionist way, as a reference to all fellow travelers toward freedom. It was a completely liberal statement uttered by people who were unquestionably ultra-liberals. And yet it totally ignored fully half the population, and a half that had its own special history of oppressive usages, to boot. Why? I’ll argue that it was merely oversight, a mental inertia even the most progressive thinkers are sometimes subject to. In 1949, womens’ liberation wasn’t a meme let alone a political movement. Pete and Lee just hadn’t thought of it yet, at least not in those terms. That came later, and indeed the recognition that it was necessary, as well as the means by which it could be carried forward, were both left to such as Peter, Paul and Mary to advance in the 60s as a further expansion of liberal philosophy. For **SA** to denigrate liberals and malign the positive benefits liberal ideals have provided for mankind, given the actual history, just frosts me. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/286 "2010-03-31T22:52:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about I tell you what I think it says about liberals who think splicing together some images and putting it together with a bad song makes a debate point? I think it says that that some liberals lack an understanding of what an argument is. > > Does that help? Like country music? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/287 "2010-04-01T00:53:44Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > For that matter, today’s gangsters are amateurs. They worry about the police. In the Twenties, they OWNED the police, and the mayor, and the judges. And yes, there were drive by shootings. They just used a different car and a different gun. Yeah, but give credit where credit is due; they cheated on their taxes. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/288 "2010-04-01T02:28:00Z")
Mary Travers was a plant, recruited by Whitaker Chambers to disrupt the left by homogenizing folk/protest music to a bland paste suitable for church basement outreach-to-youth meetings. A back story of a lefty “red diaper” childhood was created by a KGB blackmailed by pictures of J. Edgar Hoover and Malenkov. She was actually born in Germany, in 1937, the natural daughter of…but I’ve said too much. I usually do. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/289 "2010-04-01T02:34:08Z")
> [@redtail23](#): > > OK, see? Say that like Edward G Robinson, see? yeah, see? yeah you mugs, see? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/290 "2010-04-01T03:13:15Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > When the hell did LBJ turn into a conservative? Irrelevant! Vietnam was obviously the result of conservative philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/291 "2010-04-01T03:17:17Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about I tell you what I think it says about liberals who think splicing together some images and putting it together with a bad song makes a debate point? I think it says that that some liberals lack an understanding of what an argument is. > > Does that help? But I don’t self-identify as a liberal. I think I need to start a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/292 "2010-04-01T03:19:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Irrelevant! Vietnam was obviously the result of conservative philosophy. Back during the Cold War, both liberals AND conservatives were pretty hardcore when it came to being anti-communist. Their approaches may have been different, yes, but no one wanted to seem “soft on communism.” ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/293 "2010-04-01T04:58:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Back during the Cold War, both liberals AND conservatives were pretty hardcore when it came to being anti-communist. Their approaches may have been different, yes, but no one wanted to seem “soft on communism.” ISTM that reinforces my point. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/294 "2010-04-01T05:12:40Z")
I’m Canadian, which by the standards of some Americans practically makes me a communist, yet I hate communism, and not for expedient political reasons, either. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/295 "2010-04-01T05:14:18Z")
Well, I don’t identify as a communist either, but thanks to McCarthy I do not feel like starting another thread. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/296 "2010-04-01T13:17:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Mary Travers was a plant, recruited by Whitaker Chambers to disrupt the left by homogenizing folk/protest music to a bland paste suitable for church basement outreach-to-youth meetings. A back story of a lefty “red diaper” childhood was created by a KGB blackmailed by pictures of J. Edgar Hoover and Malenkov. She was actually born in Germany, in 1937, the natural daughter of…but I’ve said too much. I usually do. C’mon **'luc** , you’re supposed to be bashing **SA** here, not “outing” my heroes! Er, heroines. Damn you! Now I have (sob!) nothing good remaining in my life. My fantasies have been trampled into the dust. My fondest memories are revealed as a transparent illusion. (choke) I blame it all on liberal philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960/297 "2010-04-01T15:04:29Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Say that like Edward G Robinson, see? yeah, see? yeah you mugs, see? 😃 Exactly! 😃 > [@CannyDan](#): > > Why? I’ll argue that it was merely oversight, a mental inertia even the most progressive thinkers are sometimes subject to. In 1949, womens’ liberation wasn’t a meme let alone a political movement. Pete and Lee just hadn’t thought of it yet, at least not in those terms. That came later, and indeed the recognition that it was necessary, as well as the means by which it could be carried forward, were both left to such as Peter, Paul and Mary to advance in the 60s as a further expansion of liberal philosophy. > > For **SA** to denigrate liberals and malign the positive benefits liberal ideals have provided for mankind, given the actual history, just frosts me. Well, women’s lib had actually been around for quite a while, just not under that name. But you’re correct that even extreme liberals like Seeger and Hayes didn’t give it much thought back then. Not knocking them, I’m a huge fan. It’s just a fact of how things were. Others were worse, though, cf the Black Panthers. Wasn’t it one of them that pissed off the libbers so bad by saying something about women’s place in the Movement? Can’t think of the name at the moment… **luc** - don’t be knocking Mary, now. :mad::mad: 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-starving-artist-plan-to-restore-america-to-its-former-glory/533960.md?page=14)