The state requires me to own a car under penalty of law..

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
81

[QUOTE=TroubleAgain]
Congratulations. You’ve joined the group of parents who are the reason teachers end up buying school supplies out of their own pockets to make up for what parents like you decide they shouldn’t have to supply.
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Not my fault. If your employer makes you buy work supplies out of your own pocket, then you have a shit job. It doesn’t mean I have to play ball in that system.

[QUOTE=Mr Bus Guy]
I work for a school district. You pay taxes. Hey guess what? So do I! I do not work for you. If you walk into my office and demand my attention right then and there and pull that “you work for me” crap, you’ll get a decidedly direct answer from me, and a strongly worded suggestion that if you need to discuss something related to your child’s transportation, or that you don’t like the bus stop in front of your house, or you think the bus stop should be in front of your house because where it is now ( 3 houses down) you can’t see your little precious from your front window - that you give me a call, or even better, we decide on a better time for you to drop in. My boss and I once did a little exercise where we factored in the number of taxpayers, total local property taxes, the district budget, our average workweek (conservatively 50 hours) and our own salaries (ok, he did it, I just helped, it was pretty complex and we did it on a napkin at a bar). If I remember right, what it came down to was that any individual taxpayer “pays for” about 17 seconds a year of my time. Just long enough for me to tell you that every other kid in the district living less than 1.5 miles (2 in your case) manages to find a way to get their kids to school without whining, so please don’t let the door hit you on the way out. (yes, I am more professional than that, but inside my head that’s how it sounds)
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Well, since I pay your salary, and you pay taxes from that salary, then I guess I pay your salary and your taxes as well.

Look, I’m not trying to insult you. I never said that I was going to kick open the principal’s door and demand satisfaction. I would certainly schedule a meeting and be respectful, yet I would still be firm in what I considered poor customer service.

And yes, I am a customer of the school system. If I am not, then I should be. If parents were treated as customers, then we wouldn’t have 90% of the nonsense we have. I work in the private sector and although one individual customer represents a small amount of my personal salary, as a whole they are vital to the business. Without customers, I have no job.

In the public school system, you can create a total shit school with unhappy parents and get increased funding next year.

Mr Bus Guy, you may be providing an excellent educational service in your school district, and if you are, then great. But if you aren’t, then you don’t have the traditional pressures that would lead you to provide that better service.

[QUOTE=even sven]
Not a great metaphor. Some of the world’s cleanest water flows out of our taps for free, and yet millions choose to spend money on bottled water instead.
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Not the best analogy, either, as people don’t bathe with bottled water or wash their cars, water their lawns, and brush their teeth with bottled water. As such, people wouldn’t have the city water shut off in their homes and bring in palletes of bottled water.

I’ll try again. There are two grocery stores in your area. One will give you all of your meats, cheeses, veggies, bread, and desserts for free. The other you have to pay full price for. You choose the full price store.

What does that tell you about the quality of food at the free store?

82

[QUOTE=jtgain]
Not my fault. If your employer makes you buy work supplies out of your own pocket, then you have a shit job. It doesn’t mean I have to play ball in that system.
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You are playing ball in that system. You have a house there. You’re putting your kid into the system.

Why don’t you make an appointment with the administration, ask to see the school system’s budget and then you can recommend which programs they can adjust so you can get bus service for your kid and supplies for the teachers. Of course, since you already pay enough taxes (and I’m guessing you feel everyone else in the district is, too) you’ll have to suggest cuts in some areas to fund other areas. Then you can lobby the school board to approve the new budget and the voters to not throw out the school board who cut their favorite programs.

But that’s okay. You want everything nice and businesslike, right?

83

And what will you do if you run your family like a business and your kid messes up your bottom line? They’re wont to do so, pesky kids and their needs. Plus, there’s no ROI short term, if ever.
Why does everything have to be run like a business? Not everything fits in that model.

84

[QUOTE=jtgain]
Well, since I pay your salary, and you pay taxes from that salary, then I guess I pay your salary and your taxes as well.
[/QUOTE]
No, you pay 17 seconds of his salary per year. If you bought a car, you’d be paying the salesman’s salary for a week or more.

[QUOTE=jtgain]
I’ll try again. There are two grocery stores in your area. One will give you all of your meats, cheeses, veggies, bread, and desserts for free. The other you have to pay full price for. You choose the full price store.
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One sells luxury items for the people who are willing to pay for them - the other has to feed everyone who walks through the door, whether they are rich, poor or in between.

What about the road analogy? Do you expect all the roads you use to conform to your expectations at the expense of other road users? Because that is really what you’re asking for with the bus system.

85

First, you missed my point. No, you don’t pay my salary. Even here, where property taxes are pretty high, the biggest taxpayers pay maybe the equivalent of about 12% of my salary. I’m one guy - there’s a whole district of 22 schools and 15,000 kids here. You pay a school board to lead a district. They pay my salary.

]k]kunilou**, good point. At least here, taxing bodies have to post their budgets publicly for 30 days before they vote to approve them. Usually hard copies available at the public library or some such place. Last year, in 30 days exactly one person bothered to look at the $110 million budget.

86

[QUOTE=maggenpye]

What about the road analogy? Do you expect all the roads you use to conform to your expectations at the expense of other road users? Because that is really what you’re asking for with the bus system.
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No he is not.

That bus (or some other bus(es)) is picking up most of the OTHER kids all over the district and probably even going significantly “out of the way” for some.

Why can’t they swing by and pick up his?

If the district wants to save money by not treating everybody roughly equal, how about just telling some kids they cant have the district school books, let their parents buy em. How about some random fraction of the band doesnt get transportation to out of town games. They have to provide their own. School cafeterias probably loose money on every meal they sell, so lets save some money and tell the fatest kids they arent allowed to buy a meal. We will save money and help old chubby get fit! A win/win!. And so on.

For a board that often seems to pride itself on fairness, equality, and basic logic, I am stunned at how far from the that mark some here have strayed.
Blll

87

[QUOTE=billfish678]
No he is not.
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That’s pretty much exactly what he’s asking. The district sets, arbitrarily or not - though it looks like a state standard - a boundary. Anyone outside that boundary gets a bus. The ones inside don’t. It’s the very definition of fairness. One standard for everyone. Special needs kids get buses no matter where they live.

I never saw where they’re getting ‘most’ of the other kids. If they get his, then they have to get all of the kids, not just his. Now you’ve added buses, drivers, fuel, insurance, maintenance to your spending. If my experience is any judge, even most of the parents whose kids can’t get on a bus are going to scream about spending that money.

And saying the bus is going “out of the way” it’s pure comedy gold. It’s a SCHOOL BUS. It goes where there are kids. By definition, if it goes somewhere to get a child, that is NOT out of the way.

I’m speechless. That’s probably the most convoluted logic I’ve ever seen here. That’s an incredible stretch to take one point and make it try to show another.

Last time (though probably not) - Equality does not mean sameness. Equality doesn’t mean if one kid gets a bus, they all do. Equality sets a standard and treats everyone according to that standard.

In his district, every kid that lives less than two miles from school is being treated equally. You’re using the entire student body as a measurement group. To think this through right - use the group of kids living <2 miles from school. Yep, there’s your equality, under that rock you tried to use to hide it.

88

[QUOTE=Mr Bus Guy]
In his district, every kid that lives less than two miles from school is being treated equally. You’re using the entire student body as a measurement group. To think this through right - use the group of kids living <2 miles from school. Yep, there’s your equality, under that rock you tried to use to hide it.
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I love that we have a school bus driver on the SDMB. We have one of everything! Possibly not a crossing guard(?)

Anyway, you’re absolutely right. This is a logical limitation on a need-based program. Personally, I’d set the limit at a mile- I think 2 miles is a bit much, especially considering the ridiculously poor facilities that Florida (and America in general) provides for pedestrians.

Still, it’s just like the free lunch program- not all the kids get them, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfair.

89

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
I love that we have a school bus driver on the SDMB. We have one of everything! Possibly not a crossing guard(?)

Anyway, you’re absolutely right. This is a logical limitation on a need-based program. Personally, I’d set the limit at a mile- I think 2 miles is a bit much, especially considering the ridiculously poor facilities that Florida (and America in general) provides for pedestrians.

Still, it’s just like the free lunch program- not all the kids get them, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfair.
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Driver???!!!

Truth is, I’m the guy that runs the transportation department - 230 drivers and monitors call me their boss (poor slobs). You would never ever get me behind the wheel of a bus. What? Turn my back on 50 kids? Ha.

90

[QUOTE=Mr Bus Guy]
Driver???!!!

Truth is, I’m the guy that runs the transportation department - 230 drivers and monitors call me their boss (poor slobs). You would never ever get me behind the wheel of a bus. What? Turn my back on 50 kids? Ha.
[/QUOTE]

Close enough. :smiley:

91

[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright]
Anyway, you’re absolutely right. This is a logical limitation on a need-based program. Personally, I’d set the limit at a mile- I think 2 miles is a bit much, especially considering the ridiculously poor facilities that Florida (and America in general) provides for pedestrians.

Still, it’s just like the free lunch program- not all the kids get them, but that doesn’t mean it’s unfair.
[/QUOTE]

Okay this 2 mile (or whatever) limit is based upon several notions (or so it appears to me).

First, we can’t “serve” everyone.

Second, we need to save some money.

Third, walking up to 2 miles isnt an undue hardship on the kid. Or having the parent transport them 2 miles by whatever means.

As I mentioned earlier, I’d be surpised to see an “average” bus route where the distance between stops is something like 4 miles. I know my high school bus route didnt even come close to something like that.

But to be fair AND to save the MOST amount of money, THAT would be how you would set up your bus stops. That kind of bus route would be implementing the “notions” mentioned above.

If the kids near a school can walk 2 miles, the kids along the route can walk up to 2 miles as well.

One thing folks might want to ponder in this discusion as well. Are we talking rural farmland in Iowa or near the core of the city of Metropolis with nice city blocks, sidewalks, pedestrian crossing signals and so on?

Or are we talking “suburbany” Florida, which is where the original poster and I are coming from. Thats a whole different scenario from the other two extremes above, and may make a difference in the logic you use as well as the economics of the situation.

Blll

92

[QUOTE=billfish678]
If the kids near a school can walk 2 miles, the kids along the route can walk up to 2 miles as well.
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Oh, I see where you’re coming from. Yeah, there’s some logic to that. I wouldn’t have a problem making the bus stops further apart. OTOH, putting them 4 miles apart would lead to some horrendous travel times for tots. ~40 minutes to walk 2 miles to the bus stop and then *another *however many minutes (prob’ly 30 or more) it takes for the bus to pick everyone up and drive to school. At least, living 2 miles from school, it’s just the 40 minute walk. But I could easily see putting the stops 1 or 2 miles apart, and fewer of them. Maybe that would save enough time and money to bring the “busing zone” closer in to the school. Sounds like a proposal for the school board!

Of course, the parents screaming at Mr. Bus Guy for moving the stop 3 houses down might be less amenable to the idea! But they’re assholes, anyway. :smiley:

93

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Oh, I see where you’re coming from. Yeah, there’s some logic to that. I wouldn’t have a problem making the bus stops further apart. OTOH, putting them 4 miles apart would lead to some horrendous travel times for tots. ~40 minutes to walk 2 miles to the bus stop and then *another *however many minutes (prob’ly 30 or more) it takes for the bus to pick everyone up and drive to school. At least, living 2 miles from school, it’s just the 40 minute walk. But I could easily see putting the stops 1 or 2 miles apart, and fewer of them. Maybe that would save enough time and money to bring the “busing zone” closer in to the school. Sounds like a proposal for the school board!

Of course, the parents screaming at Mr. Bus Guy for moving the stop 3 houses down might be less amenable to the idea! But they’re assholes, anyway. :smiley:
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Given the number of parents I’ve seen driving their kids a block to the Bus Stop–and other assorted discipline problems at Bus Stops, plus some experience with boarding airplanes-- I’m not convinced that having One Bus Stop per neighborhood solves more problems than it creates. But it might, if you tweaked the right variables.

In some places, elementary school children never have to walk more than a couple of blocks(unless they live close enough to school to walk all the way to school), but High School Students may be expected to walk half a mile to the Bus Stop, provided that there are no busy roads to cross.

94

[QUOTE=jtgain]
Not my fault. If your employer makes you buy work supplies out of your own pocket, then you have a shit job. It doesn’t mean I have to play ball in that system.

[/QUOTE]

I don’t have kids, don’t want kids, and don’t even particularly like kids and I have a better attitude about school supplies than that. I even donate school supplies for kids that can’t afford them in my work-place’s annual Back-to-School supply drive. You’re a parent and you don’t even care what difficulties you might be causing teachers and possibly other students, given that supplies are generally shared class-wide now at the lower grade-levels. Great.

You’re probably a much more likeable and responsible person in real life than you portray yourself to be on this board, so–why? Why deliberately come across so cynical and uncaring?

95

[QUOTE=billfish678]
Okay this 2 mile (or whatever) limit is based upon several notions (or so it appears to me).

First, we can’t “serve” everyone.

Second, we need to save some money.

Third, walking up to 2 miles isnt an undue hardship on the kid. Or having the parent transport them 2 miles by whatever means.
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Correct on the facts, only partly on the logic. Because money isn’t an unlimited resource, and there is some good logic in getting kids up and off the couch and walk a little, **so ** there is a circle drawn and only kids outside of that circle get a bus.

No. Again - no one says the kids HAVE to walk, just they don’t qualify for a bus.

Absolutely. I’ll give you points for seeing that much of the light at least. Rural kids, as I believe I’ve mentioned get picked up right at their door, because among other reasons, it would silly to have Farmer Brown’s kids walk along a dusty (or snowy) road to get to a bus stop.

I’m in a suburbany area, and unless the state DOT approves an area as being a Serious Safety Hazard (crossing a busy road w/o a crossing guard, walking along or on a road, crossing RR tracks… ) inside of 1.5 miles and they walk.

Actually I’d like fewer stops farther apart, it does help the economics of the situation a lot. It’s not just how many butts are in the seats- if a bus makes too many stops, it takes too much time and may have to be split up.

96

[QUOTE=jtgain]
Walking the child to school isn’t an option…

A car pool with the neighbors would require me to own a car…

Hiring a car service to drive her to school every single day would be more expensive…

It just seems a burden that far outweighs other things that are complained about…
[/QUOTE]
Tell me again why the bike option isn’t acceptable? For some reason you keep skipping over that one in your defenses but it seems a very good solution to me.

97

And hey, for that matter, what about offering to pay gas money to one of your neighbors who is driving a child to the same school? Given the price of gas, it might be appreciated, and depending on the amount offered, it might be appreciated even more than offering to take your turn driving (but still be much cheaper for you than paying a car service or buying a car).

I have family in Florida, and I certainly know how un-pedestrian-friendly it can be there. But OTOH you can’t be the only person who has ever run into this issue - what do other parents do if they have no car?

98

The general logic of your exercise doesn’t work. Here it is:

The state requires me to do A. Of all the ways to accomplish A, I reject all but way X. Therefore, the state is requiring me to do X!

For some reason, you’d really like to show that a totally reasonable requirement (educate your child) is equivalent to an unreasonable one (purchase a motor vehicle and its various accoutrements), but the step in the middle is applying your preferences to arrive at the unreasonable solution. Yes, it may well be that requiring you to buy a car is unreasonable, but it’s only equivalent to the original requirement because you’ve rejected so many reasonable suggestions.

I’m sure it’s not very difficult to come up with absurd corner cases where it’s difficult to fulfill a reasonable requirement, but that doesn’t make the requirement unreasonable.

99

[QUOTE=jtgain]
… and gave me the supply list. I refuse to buy half of the shit. I pay enough property tax for schools that they can supply their own damn copier paper.
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I hope this isn’t too much of a hijack, but can I ask why you refuse to buy your daughter school supplies? Is there some reason you want her to show up the first day unprepared?

As TroubleAgain said, you’re the reason some teachers end up paying out of their own pocket for extras.
I teach preschool and I agree with Mr Bus Guy - teaching school would be great if it weren’t for the damn parents.

100

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Yeah, there’s some logic to that. I wouldn’t have a problem making the bus stops further apart. OTOH, putting them 4 miles apart would lead to some horrendous travel times for tots. ~40 minutes to walk 2 miles to the bus stop and then *another *however many minutes (prob’ly 30 or more) it takes for the bus to pick everyone up and drive to school. At least, living 2 miles from school, it’s just the 40 minute walk.
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Factor in also: kids in the 2-mile zone could ride a bike. Unless there are places to lock your bike at each bus stop, it’s harder to ride a bike to a bus.