# The steady drip-drip of American fatalities in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 22, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585 "2003-06-22T15:48:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/61 "2003-06-30T03:40:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > \*\*Well, whoop-de-fuck-a-doo! > > I don’t give the legendary rat’s ass how the numeric scoring of this debacle compares with other wars. One American life was too many > > In addition, we have committed what may well prove to be the first truly major geopolitical blunder of the 21st Century. We’re #1! With a bullet. Further down the list of potentially disastrous consequences is the growing awareness that we have attached Count Iraqula to our fiscal jugular: we are going to be spending billions upon steaming billions, pissing it away in a golden stream gushing into the Godforsaken Desert and disappearing without so much as a damp spot. > > So a miserable little pissant tinpot tyrant, whos military machine would probably be bitch-slapped by Belgium in a fair fight, this dreadful threat to our securty, is no more. And the Iraqi people may very well be marginally better off, in the right light, and if you squint a little. > > There are some remarkably thick-witted people in positions of great importance in America. If possible, we should do something about that. \*\* Hey dont let it get you down **elucidator**. Think of all those contracts that will go to US companies to fix the mess up over there. Those contracts will be a great source of revenue now that Iraq is allowed to export to full production to pay for it. That revenue will surely offset a bit of the expense. So it’s not all that bad. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/62 "2003-06-30T03:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > \*\* > I agree that that sentiment is out there. But in my opinion, those people are the naive ones. … They have no clue that the Allied deaths of this conflict have been _miniscule_ compared to prior wars we have fought. The price we are paying to fight this war in terms of blood is tiny (granted, not to their loved ones). > As for the “(still) potential benefits,” some of them may be huge and some of them may be nonexistant; and yes, some of them may actually backfire in our faces with more anti-Americanism – the verdict probably won’t be in for years, but such is the case with most wars. > \*\* Some people raising these concerns are veterans of WWII, the Korean conflict and Vietnam. I think it’s safe to bet that _they_ realize and understand how the number of casualties stack up. **Price is only meaningful in relation to the value of what is purchased.** If there is no genuine benefit to the US, then the loss of a little pinky toe to this war is too high. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > \*\* > (Did they foresee WWII after WWI?) Wars, like soldiering, are crapshoots too. > \*\* This war was much more of an elective war than either of the two examples you mention. The threat to the US from Iraq was hypothetical. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by stuyguy \* > \*\* > But we DO know that Saddam is toppled and the thousands of Iraqis who suffered under him are better off today than they were a year ago. That much is undeniable. > \*\* This is worth the American lives we’re spending in Iraq because… And we had to invade in such a hurry because… ---
**Author:** ![JonBodner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@JonBodner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonBodner)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/63 "2003-06-30T04:30:59Z")
So, I’ve got a few questions for those who are terribly concerned about the number of US deaths since May 1: 1. How many soldiers are there in Iraq right now? 2. How many soldiers die on an average day, in traning mishaps, accidents, etc., when stationed at home? 3. How many people in a population of the same size as the number of soldiers in Iraq are expected to die over the same time period? Correct for the ages of the soldiers, as compared to the general population, of course. My guess is that the number of deaths per capita, per day, for soldiers in Iraq is lower than the number of deaths per capita, per day in most major US cities, for the same age group, and only marginally higher than the number of deaths per capita, per day for military units that aren’t in combat. Anyone care to prove me right or wrong? I’m not trying to trivialize these deaths, but they should be put in context. However, I suspect that the demagogues have no interest in context if they can score political points against a president for whom they have an irrational hate. ---
**Author:** ![stuyguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@stuyguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stuyguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/64 "2003-06-30T04:44:46Z")
Simon, you raise several valid questions, all suitable for “Great Debates.” I have opinions, some only half-baked, on all of them but – in all honesty – I don’t want to state any of them; this thread has sucked away more time than I care to give as it is. The only point I do want to defend (because I do feel strongly about it) is that, once you’ve commited to this war (and it seems we have), casualties are acceptable because 1. they are to be expected and 2. they are still low. That’s really all my point comes down to. Poking me with emotional barbs or trying to extrapolate my stance into bigger, weightier debates are just distractions. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/65 "2003-06-30T05:33:24Z")
From the Office of the Inspector General, Department of Defense: From October 1, 1979 to September 30, 1996 (17 years): Total active duty non-combat deaths…….29,911 (1,760/year) ……….Accidents…….….18,179 (1.069/year) ……….Illness………………5,497 (323/year) ……….Suicide………………4,090 (241/year) ……….Homicide…….……1,693 (100/year) ……….Undetermined………452 (27/year) During this period there were 558 combat deaths (33/year) (This includes terrorist incidents). Of the 18,179 accidental deaths 6,790 occurred between 1988 and 1996 (754/year). Of these: ………2,092 were on-duty (232/year) ………4,698 were off-duty (522/year) of which 3,788 (421/year) involved cars (pedestrians are included here). ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/66 "2003-06-30T06:50:47Z")
haha! this ones cute: > [@](#): > > A shouting match broke out when an Iraqi civilian, Jamal Shalal Habib al-Mahemdi, accused a U.S. soldier of stealing $600 from his car. > > The soldier tried to wave the man on, but, at the behest of bystanders, his superior officer, Sgt. James A. Phillips, searched his pockets and found the money. Phillips then returned the bills to al-Mahemdi, who waved them above his head and cursed the soldier. Speaks volumes. Murder of civilians, I can understand. But… STEALING? > **[Latest news from around the world | The Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world)** > > Latest World news news, comment and analysis from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/67 "2003-06-30T18:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Read\_Neck \* > “rjung”, You let your guard slip and the truth came out… You actually consider this whole subject as a political football. No, I’m merely predicting the weasley behavior of the Republican Party, who consider _everything_ to be a political football against their opponents. Or did we forget about the “independent” Whitewater “investigation” already? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/68 "2003-06-30T19:16:20Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Stuyguy_ > > the thousands of Iraqis who suffered under him are better off today than they were a year ago. That much is undeniable. Do you have any cites for this undeniable fact? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/69 "2003-06-30T20:09:09Z")
I see that JonBodner questions and zigaretten information went nearly unnoticed (despite being, you know, relevant, to the OP) in the general (and sadly all too frequent) US/Bush bashing feeding frenzy. After being on this board for a while, this comes as no surprise. Why dig into an interesting area of the debate when you can just rant on? The point they were trying to make, which was also on my mind as I read through the general rants, and which is actually relevant to the OP is: Is it more dangerous or less dangerous to be posted in Iraq today (or Afganistan) than to simply be in the military? Being in the military is a dangerous business (I know, I was in). Even without a war, people die quite often in the military. Hell, even being a civilian, people die every day in car accidents. Anyone have any stats on deaths per 100,000 due to car accidents in the time period we are talking about? How about deaths in the civilian population at large per 100,000 in the time we are talking about? From Collounsbury > [@](#): > > Writing off a certain level of casualties comes with the territory. Surprise, surprise, occupation means costs. Iraqi deaths, American deaths, British deaths. > > What should be most worrisome is the poor level of planning shown to date and the inability of the Administration to come up with realistic plans on getting things jump started. I note for the record, for example, that there are still no investment guarantee facilities or the like ready, and from what I hear from insiders, none are likely to be in place anytime soon as the Admin had not planned for the current scenario. > > What then should be worrisome more than some soldiers dying is the incoherence of Admin policy, the lack of realism on cost and from what I see, the constant pressure to try to do things on the cheap rather than face up to fairly staggering costs. This is harsh…but I tend to agree with it. Its always a tradegy to lose a family member to war. I’m not trying to make light of that. But more disturbing to me is the seeming inability of the administration to put together a coherent plan in either Iraq or Afganistan…not the losses of our troops, per se. The other thing I would have to agree with in Collounsbury post is, we are there now. Right or wrong, its too late to change that. Running away from the problem is not the answer. Endless rants about how the war was wrong, we should never have gone, etc etc, aren’t going to help (unless some of you bozos have a convient time machine so we can go back and change the past). Its over and done folks…the war HAPPENED. What we need NOW is for people to address the REAL problem…namely the fact that the administration seemingly wouldn’t know a solution to its myriad problems in Iraq/Afganistan if it bit them on the ass. And we NEED to find those solutions, and soon. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ChaosGod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ac91a4/32.png) [@ChaosGod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChaosGod)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/70 "2003-06-30T21:04:30Z")
xtism-\> Well, GWB can’t agree with you more: As long as there’s still a chance to pump free oil for the occupation to self-finance, the administration is more than willing to take the occasional soldier shot in the neck, the killing of the occasional group of protesting iraqis, etc. Hell! do you know how many people die worldwide in traffic accidents alone!? I tell you, it’s a lot more the meager “drip-drop” in Iraq. So what if the country’s been bombed back to pre-history, the medical assistance is dismal, water is polluted, no electricity in weeks, etc.? Thousands of people die in China daily for various motives. So there! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/71 "2003-06-30T21:10:47Z")
ChaosGod Um, right. What ever you are smoking, please pass it to me…I could use a hit about right now. I really hadn’t realized the country had been bombed back into pre-history. Don’t mind those gentlemen coming up behind you in white suits Chaos…they are just being friendly and want to fit you for a new vest with matching sleeves… Reguards with a wink ;), XT ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/72 "2003-06-30T22:05:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonBodner \* > \*\*So, I’ve got a few questions for those who are terribly concerned about the number of US deaths since May 1: > > 1. How many soldiers are there in Iraq right now? > 2. How many soldiers die on an average day, in traning mishaps, accidents, etc., when stationed at home? > 3. How many people in a population of the same size as the number of soldiers in Iraq are expected to die over the same time period? Correct for the ages of the soldiers, as compared to the general population, of course.\*\* A better question is this; quick, now, without look it up on Yahoo, give me the name of any of the soldiers who have died since the “war” was declared somewhat over ::sound of lone dog barking in distance, tumbleweed rolls by:: Does it strike anyone the least bit odd that we are no longer hearing the word ‘hero’ bandied about and cheapened; that we no longer are seeing agonizing closeups of grieving family members; that we are no longer seeing in-depth interviews with the victim’s mailman on “Today”? America’s attention span has waned, and soon the history that is presently being extensively revised will be used to assault yet another evildoer. The answer to the question of ‘why’ implied above is that it is no longer politically expedient to canonize our fighting men and women. Truth is, the earlier deaths were no more meaningful than the current ones, the pain no less for the survivors. For George Bush, Carl Rove, Dick Cheney and the other flying monkeys of this administration, the means more than justified the end, the full scope of which has not yet been revealed. But I do go on… ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2003, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/73 "2003-07-01T20:03:28Z")
> [@](#): > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle\_east/3034254.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3034254.stm) > > US troops have come under fresh attack in the Iraqi capital, Baghdad, with reports saying at least three soldiers were injured. > > In one incident in central Baghdad, a military vehicle was wrecked, apparently by a rocket-propelled grenade. > > Reports from the scene quoted eyewitnesses as saying three soldiers and one other person were killed, but several hours later there was no confirmation from the American authorities. > > The explosion was one of several incidents reported on Tuesday, including a blast in a mosque in the flashpoint town of Falluja that killed at least five Iraqis. > > The Baghdad blast appears to be the latest in a series of attacks on US forces in Iraq, which have killed at least 16 American soldiers since the war was declared over in May > [@](#): > > Fallujah blast fuels anti-US feeling > > [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle\_east/3036472.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3036472.stm) > > On a large concrete forecourt beneath the shade of an awning of woven reeds, about 400 men sit before six wooden coffins praying for the souls of those lying inside. They are martyrs according to the imam, men who died a glorious death in a battle for Islam. > > Sheikh Abu Amar says it was the Americans who launched an air strike against the ten theological students and their imam in the middle of a class. He waved a fragment of twisted metal to prove his point. > > “The real story is that this is great evidence to condemn the Americans,” he said. “It is the shell from a missile.” If we have any time, we’ll kill all Americans. Tell this to all the West > > But what about the American response? Impossible, they say. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/74 "2003-07-03T12:55:18Z")
It is getting worse as the days go by and today the news mentioned some newly organized resistance movement in Iraq. The fact that there are several attacks on US forces daily and that they most often cause the US forces to fire back and end killing civilians is a bad recipe for any progress. US forces will have to get tougher in their approach with the the local population and this will lead to greater resentment. It is a catch-22 and impossible to win. At the same time, as has been said, the USA cannot just pull out now. It is tough shit with no way out. > [@](#): > > [US troops wounded in Iraq](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3041162.stm) > > At least seven US soldiers have been wounded in three separate attacks on troops in Iraq. > > In the most serious incident, the US military said a two-vehicle convoy had been targeted by “an explosive device” which wounded six soldiers in Ramadi, 100 kilometres (60 miles) west of Baghdad. > > Troops on patrol in central Baghdad also came under fire, with one soldier sustaining injuries before the gunman was shot dead. A six-year-old Iraqi boy was wounded. > > In a later attack in the capital, a rocket-propelled grenade was fired at US forces travelling through a residential area. It is not clear if there were any casualties. > > The incidents are part of a wave of attacks targeting US troops in central and western Iraq, which the US and British governments blame on remnants of Saddam Hussein’s regime. > > The first shooting in Baghdad happened in the Kadhimyah neighbourhood. > > US Central Command confirmed that a soldier in the 1st Armored Division and a six-year-old Iraqi boy had been wounded during the exchange ---
**Author:** ![Lightkeeper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lightkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightkeeper)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/75 "2003-07-06T03:54:46Z")
I think this article by Stan Goff may shed light on the discussion. Sorry I couldn’t link it, so I’m quoting it in full… > [@](#): > > In 1970, when I arrived at my unit, Company A, 4th Battalion/503rd Infantry, 173rd Airborne Brigade, in what was then the Republic of Vietnam, I was charged up for a fight. I believed that if we didn’t stop the communists in Vietnam, we’d eventually be fighting this global conspiracy in the streets of Hot Springs, Arkansas. I’d been toughened by Basic Training, Infantry Training and Parachute Training, taught how to use my weapons and equipment, and I was confident in my ability to vanquish the skinny unter-menschen. So I was dismayed when one of my new colleagues–a veteran who’d been there ten months–told me, “We are losing this war.”… **[Article edited down due to copyright concerns. Please do not post large sections of copyrighted articles…post links and brief excerpts only. --Gaudere]** ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/76 "2003-07-06T15:03:31Z")
Lightkeeper, posting whole articles is not allowed but I found the article [here](http://www.jihadunspun.com/intheatre_internal.php?article=65008&list=/home.php&). ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/77 "2003-07-06T15:31:21Z")
You do know that Stan Goff is a left-wing nut who believes that Bush arranged the 9/11 tragedy in order to corner the world oil market, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/78 "2003-07-06T15:35:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*You do know that Stan Goff is a left-wing nut who believes that Bush arranged the 9/11 tragedy in order to corner the world oil market, don’t you? \*\* Not that it necessarily invalidates what he wrote in the article. I mean, the wackiest nut-job moron could say that water is wet and that wouldn’t make it false. ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/79 "2003-07-06T15:54:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > Not that it necessarily invalidates what he wrote in the article. I mean, the wackiest nut-job moron could say that water is wet and that wouldn’t make it false. You’re right with respect to statements of fact. If he says that the weapons weigh seven pounds, then I believe him. It’s his ability to draw a rational conclusion from those facts that I question. So when he says, and this is the whole point of the article, that the troops must be getting demoralized already, I’m not inclined to give a damn what he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Lightkeeper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lightkeeper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightkeeper)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585/80 "2003-07-07T11:54:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zigaretten \* > \*\*So when he says, and this is the whole point of the article, that the troops must be getting demoralized already, I’m not inclined to give a damn what he thinks. \*\* Then maybe you should have a look at [this](http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0707/p02s01-woiq.html) link from CS Monitor, or even [this](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3047798.stm) one from the BBC. I think it’s fair to say that the troop are indeed getting demoralized. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-steady-drip-drip-of-american-fatalities-in-iraq/183585.md?page=5)