# The Story of Jesus - just a hodge-podge of myths? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653 "2004-02-28T19:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/61 "2004-03-03T22:13:28Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Its kind of interesting that no contemporary writers (that I’m aware of) actually wrote about Jesus or any of the events that took place. This isn’t conclusive proof of course that there wasn’t a real man who we now refer to as Jesus of course (I actually think there was a man or men at the core of this myth/story/event as I said earlier)…but it IS fairly interesting that, at the time, the events weren’t considered important enough, or weren’t widely known enough to have survived in writings by someone from the time. > > -XT To be fair, it’s not like we have cartloads of written documents from the Ist century Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/62 "2004-03-03T22:13:55Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And let me add that despite you stating that christians can’t be convinced, there are plenty of people, who, when faced with arguments they ignored, investigate the topic, ponder again their beliefs and sometimes change their mind. Once again, most of us atheist used to be believers until we just couldn’t swallow the BS we were fed with anymore (which can happen at any age). . :raises hand in corroboration: ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/63 "2004-03-03T22:16:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Its kind of interesting that no contemporary writers (that I’m aware of) actually wrote about Jesus or any of the events that took place. You’d think walking on water, bringing the dead back to life, etc., would get a fellow a little press notice. 😉 The author of Luke (assuming the book is not a forgery) apparently knew some of Jesus’s disciples, so I guess second-hand accounts is as close as we get. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/64 "2004-03-03T22:30:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > To be fair, it’s not like we have cartloads of written documents from the Ist century Palestine. True. However, a new religion was kicking off, and they definitely had scholars among them (remember all the different letters and writings that they managed to preserve from the very early days??). You’d think that, if there was anything of importance written about Jesus or the events that transpired, it would have been carefully guarded and preserved for prosperity. Also, its kind of telling that a century or so later Christians were actively forging such ‘proofs’ or modifying records of the time to try and show just what we are looking for. As I said, this by no means proves anything…but its interesting to me. I think that its pretty conclusive to be honest that the events didn’t exactly rock the Roman world (at the time) nor did they exactly rock Palestine either…at the time. This is a legend that built upon itself, and slowly gained momentum. I think its facinating that from such humble beginnings a religion was formed that would become so pervasive later on. > [@spoke-](#): > > You’d think walking on water, bringing the dead back to life, etc., would get a fellow a little press notice. lol…exactly what I was getting at. More to the point, you’d think that someone who was perceived to be raising a rebellion and marching into the capital at the head of a crowd shouting about the ‘King of the Jews’ would have drawn more press, especially by the church authorities…and they DID keep records. But I’ve never seen any Jewish church writing contemporary with the Jesus events either. Strange, no? -XT ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/65 "2004-03-03T23:10:40Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Each other day on this board, someone states that apart the gospels, there are plenty of other evidences about the life of Jesus. That’s not the half of it. A surprising number of Christians believe that the gospels are four _independent, eyewitness accounts_ of the life of Christ. Until I did my own investigating, I had no idea that this was patently false. > [@](#): > > To be fair, it’s not like we have cartloads of written documents from the Ist century Palestine. That’s a good point, although it’s funny how many Christians will argue that point and/or the _opposite_ point, depending on the topic; IOW, absence of evidence is only evidence of absence when they _want_ it to be. If I had a nickel for every time the discussion has gone like this: Christian: “If Jesus didn’t rise from the dead, why didn’t anyone refute it at the time?” Skeptic: “Why would you expect contemporaneous refutations, when there weren’t any contemporaneous _confirmations_ either?” Christian: “Well, hardly any documents survive from that time.” :smack: (Allright, I’d probably only have about 15 or 20 cents in nickels, but I seriously _have_ had this exact conversation more than once.) Here in SDMB I think most of the folks are too sharp to use such a flip-flop argument. Hmmm…on preview, the “smack” smilie isn’t appearing. Did that one get censored? ---
**Author:** ![FriendRob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecc23a/32.png) [@FriendRob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriendRob)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/66 "2004-03-04T16:20:46Z")
To add a bit more to **Spoke-'s** comments about the Gospel authors: Mark, as was said, is traditionally not one of the disciples. Matthew, OTOH, is. Now, most scholars agree that Matt copied much of his gospel from Mark. Why would he do that, if he was an eyewitness and Mark wasn’t? As for Luke, although he uses “we” in Acts, some scholars have noted that other writers of the time used “we” when describing sea voyages. This may have been a writerly convention rather than an indication Luke was a companion of Paul. At any rate, Luke 1 definitely indicates that he used other written sources when writing about Jesus. This is confirmed by scholarship - Luke used both Mark and Q, as did Matthew. Luke doesn’t ever quote Paul’s letters, and his theology is quite different from Paul, so it’s not so clear if he was ever close to Paul in actuality. In fact, there are some pretty major discrepancies between the account in Acts and Paul’s letters. John also used at least one written source, according to scholars, known as the “signs source”. Again, why would he do this if he was an eyewitness? ---
**Author:** ![dannell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@dannell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dannell)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/67 "2004-03-04T19:07:53Z")
Like I said before , I have done some research. What I finally decided is my truth. Everything has two sides. You can find information on any idea and then you can find just as much information to contradict that idea. In the end, you have to believe what feels right in your heart and mind. Personally I can not imagine living in this cruel world without believing in the love of Jesus Christ. There were times in my life I would have checked out of this place had it not been for my belief. I don’t need someone or a book or historian or writer to tell me what I know in my heart. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/68 "2004-03-04T21:04:36Z")
> [@dannell](#): > > Like I said before , I have done some research. What I finally decided is my truth. Everything has two sides. You can find information on any idea and then you can find just as much information to contradict that idea. In the end, you have to believe what feels right in your heart and mind. Personally I can not imagine living in this cruel world without believing in the love of Jesus Christ. There were times in my life I would have checked out of this place had it not been for my belief. I don’t need someone or a book or historian or writer to tell me what I know in my heart. Of course I respect your right to your own beliefs, but personally, I believe there is an objective truth. We may not always know what that truth is, but it makes more sense to me to start with the supposition that there is a reality that is not changed merely by wishful thinking. For me, I can only believe the objective truth; I am incapable of believing something merely because it “feels right”, no matter how desperately I might wish for that thing to be true. (Consciously, at least.) YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/69 "2004-03-04T21:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Personally I can not imagine living in this cruel world without believing in the love of Jesus Christ. There were times in my life I would have checked out of this place had it not been for my belief. You also believe that God created the cruel world in which you live! Personally, I would never threaten somebody I loved with eternal torture and misery. > [@](#): > > I don’t need someone or a book or historian or writer to tell me what I know in my heart. So basically, you don’t worry about facts, you just decide what’s true based on what you want to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/70 "2004-03-05T08:15:44Z")
> [@MLS](#): > > The very earliest generally accepted writings were from 70+ years afterward. The earliest accepted writings are Paul’s epistles, the earliest of which, First and Second Thessolonians, were written about 50 A.D., only 20 years after Jesus’ death. And Paul knew the apostle Peter. The earliest accepted gospel, Mark, was written about 40 years after Jesus’ death. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/71 "2004-03-05T08:29:44Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I don’t think the authors of the Gospels were evangelizing the same generation 40-70 years after the crucifixion, especially in an era where life expectancy was less than 50. Life expectancy was low because infant mortality rates were high, not because it was typical to die off by the time you reached 50. Life expectancy in the United States in 1900 was 47.3 years, yet people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s were common. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/72 "2004-03-05T14:02:18Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Life expectancy was low because infant mortality rates were high, not because it was typical to die off by the time you reached 50. Life expectancy in the United States in 1900 was 47.3 years, yet people in their 60s, 70s, and 80s were common. It’s still incorrect to say that the writers of the Gospels were either of or speaking to the same generation as Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/73 "2004-03-05T15:40:34Z")
> [@FriendRob](#): > > As for Luke, although he uses “we” in Acts, some scholars have noted that other writers of the time used “we” when describing sea voyages. This may have been a writerly convention rather than an indication Luke was a companion of Paul. I’m not sure I buy that theory. There are passages in Acts where Paul is described as traveling by sea, but “we” is _not_ used to describe the voyage. Example: > [@](#): > > **Acts 17** > 14 And then immediately the brethren sent away Paul to go as it were to the sea: but Silas and Timotheus abode there still. > 15 And they that conducted Paul brought him unto Athens: and receiving a commandment unto Silas and Timotheus for to come to him with all speed, they departed. > > [Cite.](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=ACTS+17:14-16&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=on&showxref=on) So it looks like the author of Acts was not with Paul for that particular voyage. Still seems to me that Acts at least _purports_ to be written by a sometime companion of Paul. (Is there any other reason to doubt that?) As for differences between the letters of Paul and the descriptions in Acts, well, they were written many years apart by different people. Memories fade. (Are you thinking of any specific examples of conflicting passages?) ---
**Author:** ![dannell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@dannell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dannell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/74 "2004-03-05T15:51:27Z")
> [@rhinostylee](#): > > You also believe that God created the cruel world in which you live! Personally, I would never threaten somebody I loved with eternal torture and misery. > > So basically, you don’t worry about facts, you just decide what’s true based on what you want to be true. So basically, you don’t worry about facts, you just decide what’s true based on what you want to be true. [/QUOTE] God created a Beautiful world and gave us free will. I am sure you knew that would be my response. I also believe that you come to your conclusions pretty much the same as I do … You find facts to back your opinions up but I am sure there are facts that you read that contradict your opinion but you choose not to believe them for whatever reasons (not creditable to you ect.). In the end You believe what feels right to you. It amazes me how some people on this board can disagree with me and I don’t feel that they are angry at me but others seem so hostile. Honestly I have never met an atheist face to face and this message board struck my curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/75 "2004-03-05T17:03:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dannell:** > > It amazes me how some people on this board can disagree with me and I don’t feel that > they are angry at me but others seem so hostile. I was simply pointing out a contradiction within your beliefs. You said that you couldn’t make it in this cruel world without the love of Jesus, but you believe that God created the cruel world in which you live. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dannell:** > > God created a Beautiful world and gave us free will. I am sure you knew that would be > my response. I’m confused . . . is the world Beautiful or cruel? You seem divided on the issue. I can somewhat predict how you may respond to this . . . “God created a beautiful world, and free will to love him, and due to man’s sinful nature it’s a cruel place.” Do you believe that God is all knowing and knows what we are going to do before we do it? Do the victims of crimes have free will? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dannell:** > I also believe that you come to your conclusions pretty much the same as I > do … You find facts to back your opinions up but I am sure there are facts that you read > that contradict your opinion but you choose not to believe them for whatever reasons (not > creditable to you ect.). In the end You believe what feels right to you. No, there is a very distinct difference between how we come to conclusions. I look at the available evidence and come to a conclusion based on the validity of the evidence. You may think that this is what you just said, but here’s the difference . . . you said that there are facts that you read “that contradict your opinion but you choose not to believe them for whatever reasons.” Facts are not beliefs. By definition, they do not require belief. Earlier in this thread, you tried to present proof of Jesus’s existence: “Jesus was mentioned in some of Pilate’s and Caesar’s Journals” which is simply not true. It is not a fact. Do you still believe this to be true? If you choose to use this misinformation as proof of Jesus’s existence, then you have no credibility. In my last post, I pointed out this quote of yours: > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dannell:** > I don’t need someone or a book or historian or writer to tell me what I know in my heart. You’ve just contradicted yourself. You’ve 1) that you use facts to back up your opinions, and also 2) that you don’t need books or historians to tell you what you know in your heart. It seems to me that you claim that your opinions are based on what you consider to be facts, and then as soon as these facts are refuted, you say that you don’t need them to tell you what you know in your heart. So basically what you are saying is that you will believe it no matter what and that your conclusions are in fact NOT based on facts. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **dannell:** > Honestly I have never met an atheist face to face and this message board struck my curiosity. I’m sure that you have met an atheist face to face, you just didn’t know that he/she was an atheist. Atheists don’t wear signs that say “I’m an atheist” on them, and they don’t stand around and try to disprove God to everyone all day. If you pay extra attention in the future, and have a little bit of luck, you may be able to spot the elusive atheist in its natural habitat . . . it’ll be the person that doesn’t have a halo around its head. ---
**Author:** ![dannell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@dannell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dannell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/76 "2004-03-05T17:54:40Z")
If you pay extra attention in the future, and have a little bit of luck, you may be able to spot the elusive atheist in its natural habitat . . . it’ll be the person that doesn’t have a halo around its head. [/QUOTE] You are incredibly funny and I can tell no matter what I say you can turn it around. But I do live in the Bible Belt so I suppose everyone wears a Halo some are just shiner then others. I have met people that say the are going to H\*\*\* but usually all here acknowledge God. I would like to meet you in person one day and see if you would dislike me so harshly in person. I don’t need proof in writing as I said before but if you read above I also said at one time I did research. So at one time I thought I did need proof but for reason I doubt you would understand I do not at this time need proof. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/77 "2004-03-05T17:58:36Z")
> [@dannell](#): > > I have met people that say the are going to H\*\*\* but usually all here acknowledge God. What’s with the asterisks in “Hell”? Has this become a dirty word while I was out of the room? ---
**Author:** ![rhinostylee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bc79bd/32.png) [@rhinostylee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhinostylee)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2004, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/78 "2004-03-05T18:52:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Oridinally posted by **dannell** : > > I would like to meet you in person one day and see if you would dislike me so harshly in person. You are making assumptions based on our difference of opinion. I don’t know you, so I don’t know if I would like you or not. You’re arguments are very much lacking in the logic department, and when I point that out to you I am being “hostile” and I “dislike you harshly.” You use circular logic and constantly dodge refutations of your posts. > [@](#): > > Oridinally posted by **dannell** : > > I don’t need proof in writing as I said before but if you read above I also said at one time I did research. So at one time I thought I did need proof but for reason I doubt you would understand I do not at this time need proof. “At one time I did research”? This does not give you much credibility either. Some of your prior research has been refuted within this post, as I have pointed out. So it makes no difference that the proof you relied on at one time is nothing more than fiction? Would it have made a difference at the time that you DID rely on proof if that proof was refuted and turned out to be fiction? > [@](#): > > Oridinally posted by **dannell** : > > You are incredibly funny and I can tell no matter what I say you can turn it around. But I do live in the Bible Belt so I suppose everyone wears a Halo some are just shiner then others. I have met people that say the are going to H\*\*\* but usually all here acknowledge God. I’m glad that you can appreciate the humor in my previous post. I have a new question for you: were you raised in the bible belt? Do you think that you would be a christian if you were raised in a Muslim nation? Do you think that, generally speaking, a person’s religion depends more on their geographic location than it does on truth? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/79 "2004-03-06T01:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > That had never occurred to me, but it is an excellent thought. > > What’s more, it provides logical support for the idea that there was an historical Jesus, who was baptized by John the Baptist. If not, why would there be a need to come up with this elaborate counter-propaganda to establish that Jesus was greater than the man who baptized him? Why include John the Baptist in the story at all, if Jesus is an invented figure? Why admit that Jesus went to him to be baptized? I counsel skepticism here. The main reason is that very often there are _theological_ reasons for various parts of a story that fold into the political motives. It might be what you say: Jesus needed to be defended as a superior martyr to JtB. But it also might be because the writers of the Gospels thought JtB played some important reason explaining who Jesus was in a theolgical sense. Note also all the stuff about whether JtB was or was not some second coming of Elijah. Note that Christian theology is essentially a hijack/rewrite of Jewish theology. It’s a really complex issue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653/80 "2004-03-06T05:05:39Z")
FWIW, The baptism of Jesus by John is one of the few events of the gospels to get a red rating from the Jesus Seminar as being virtually certain as an authentic act of Jesus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-jesus-just-a-hodge-podge-of-myths/231653.md?page=3)