# The story of the Jews escaping slavery in Egypt and wandering the desert is fiction, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2026, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800 "2026-01-18T16:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2026, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/221 "2026-01-23T20:19:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > DrDeth’s point was apparently that Egypt was lousy with masters who were not Egyptian and spoke some other language. I _think_. I may be, what’s the word… misreading. No, I didnt say that at all. Someone posted that hebrew had no loan words from Egyptian, which would be expected after generations of being slaves. I pointed out they did. I never claimed that slaves didnt learn the language of their masters That is your idea, claiming I said that. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2026, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/222 "2026-01-23T20:34:32Z")
In general, Israel was a vassal state of one regional superpower or another for the entire period prior to, potentially, the creation of the modern nation of Israel. Maybe there was some brief period under King Saul and his direct descendants that they were a distinct entity, and possibly some other moments like after Egypt’s regional powers wained but before being taken by the Akkadians, etc. But certainly the kingdoms of Israel and Judea were subject of Egypt for centuries, if not greater. It would be strange if there wasn’t an amount of word borrowing. (I’d probably back the idea that Exodus is largely an allegory for their time, nationally, as a vassal state.) As I recall the original Semitic script was a variant of one of the Egyptian scripts. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2026, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/223 "2026-01-23T20:35:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I never claimed that slaves didnt learn the language of their masters This is you saying the Hebrews didn’t necessarily have to learn Egyptian - my emphasis. Unless you meant something entirely different by “that area”. > [@DrDeth](#): > > if you live in your own groups/neighborhoods and speak your parents language, **you might not learn much of the local dominant language- which since that area was a melting pot- there really wasnt one** Then when asked : > [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re alleging the Egyptians possibly commanded their slaves in a language _other_ than Egyptian? You didn’t say “No”, you said : > [@DrDeth](#): > > If they normally spoke some other language sure. Which is ambiguous, but either “they” are the Egyptians and you’re alleging they didn’t speak Egyptian, or “they” are the slaves and you’re alleging the Egyptians would speak in the slave’s language. Both of those are on their face ridiculous statements. And that’s where the rest of it took off. > [@DrDeth](#): > > That is your idea No, that’s your own words. If you meant something different when you said the slaves in Egypt did not have to learn much of the dominant language, you at no point corrected that statement subsequently. Instead you tried to Gish Gallop your way to Egyptians speaking Nubian… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2026, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/224 "2026-01-23T20:38:16Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > As I recall the original Semitic script was a variant of one of the Egyptian scripts. You recall correctly. Hieratic, I_I_RC. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Gordon\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_G)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/225 "2026-01-24T11:02:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Gordon\_G](#): > > > > There are Egyptian documents about enslaving “Habiru” (or “'Apiru”) people. It’s quite controversial but I think it’s 99+% certain that the words “Habiru” and “Hebrew” are cognate. > > The majority scholarly consensus is that [Apiru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CA%BFApiru#Etymology) and [Hebrew](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrews#Etymology) are false cognates and the groups are, _at best_, very tangentially relate Let’s not confuse _cognate_ with _synonym_. I’ll need a cite that a majority contests the **cognate** status. Exonyms can shift around. For example, the “gypsy cab drivers” in New York are not _Romani_. Here’s a Bible verse showing that Israelite and Hebrew were not synonyms. > [@](#): > > First Samuel 14:21 ::: Moreover the Hebrews that were with the Philistines before that time, which went up with them into the camp from the country round about, even they also turned to be with the Israelites that were with Saul and Jonathan. > **[Hebrew - עברי - Wiktionary, the free dictionary](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D7%A2%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%99#Hebrew)** > > Traditionally from עֵבֶר (éver, “Eber”), the ancestor of the Israelites. Probably related to עָבַר (avár, “to cross”), from the crossing of the river Euphrates or Jordan to Canaan. The Hebrew word for “Hebrew” derives from “crossed from the other side of the Euphrates River.” The [Bible connects this to the progenitors of Israel](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Joshua%2024%3A2&version=NIV): > [@](#): > > Joshua said to all the people, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Long ago your ancestors, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the Euphrates River and worshiped other gods. Note that the Hebrew language doesn’t seem to have been called called “Hebrew” until the 2nd century BC. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/226 "2026-01-24T11:08:04Z")
> [@Gordon\_G](#): > > Here’s a Bible verse showing that Israelite and Hebrew were not synonyms. Of course they aren’t. Israelis are supposed to be descendants of Jacob (Israel). Hebrews are… somewhere further up (or down?—I mean a step closer to the base of) the imaginary genealogical tree. It’s Old Testament Genealogy 101 (like, literally the story of Genesis). But that’s confusing the issue. It’s not a matter of whether Hebrew and Israeli are synonymous or cognates, it’s a matter of whether Apiru and Hebrew are. ---
**Author:** ![Gordon\_G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Gordon\_G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gordon_G)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/227 "2026-01-24T11:14:43Z")
You’re thinking of descendants of _Eber_ – a fictitious ancestor invented for this “just so” story. I intended the separation between “israelite” and “Hebrew” as just a further clue to refute the claim that Hebrew and Habiru are unrelated terms. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/228 "2026-01-24T11:16:01Z")
> [@Gordon\_G](#): > > You’re thinking of descendants of _Eber_ – a fictitious ancestor invented for this “just so” story. And here I thought that the genealogies in Genesis might have a kernel of truth! (Obviously not really) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/229 "2026-01-24T11:29:54Z")
> [@Gordon\_G](#): > > Let’s not confuse _cognate_ with _synonym_ Who’s doing that? The commonly accepted etymology of Apiru is from “dust”, the accepted etymology of Hebrew is from “across (the river)”. They are in no way cognate. > [@Gordon\_G](#): > > I’ll need a cite that a majority contests the **cognate** status. **You just quoted** my cites that say exactly that: > The term was first discovered in its Akkadian version “ḫa-bi-ru” or “ḫa-pi-ru”. Due to later findings in Ugaritic and Egyptian which used the consonants ʿ, p and r, and in light of the well-established sound change from Northwest Semitic[ʿ] to Akkadian ḫ, the root of this term is proven to be ʿ-p-r. **This root means “dust, dirt”** , and links to the characterization of the ʿApiru as nomads, mercenaries, people who are not part of the cultural society. > The most generally accepted hypothesis today is that the text intends _ivri_ as the adjective (Hebrew suffix -i) **formed from _ever_ (עֵבֶר) ‘beyond, across’** (avar (עָבַר) ‘he crossed, he traversed’) > [@Gordon\_G](#): > > Exonyms can shift around What does later exonym shift have to do with _cognacy_? Absolutely nothing. > [@Gordon\_G](#): > > Here’s a Bible verse Naah, I’m good, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mikestone8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@Mikestone8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikestone8)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2026, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/230 "2026-01-24T21:47:33Z")
Don’t take the two million bit seriously. In the literary conventions of the day, that’s just their way of saying “a lot of people” It’s the same as Methuselah living nine hundred years. That’s just a colourful way of saying that he lived a long time. Ditto for Egyptian stelae showing every war Pharaoh fought as a glorious victory, when quite a few of them probably weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2026, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/231 "2026-01-25T10:01:03Z")
> [@Mikestone8](#): > > It’s the same as Methuselah living nine hundred years. That’s just a colourful way of saying that he lived a long time. Naah. Not when it’s more specific than that - 967, not a round 900 - and the writers also go into detail about it like how old he was when he fathered Lamech. This was clearly not intended just as “a very long time”, but a specific amount of time. It’s just mythical long-lived ancestry for contemporary political purposes, just like the Sumerian Kings List. > [@Mikestone8](#): > > Ditto for Egyptian stelae showing every war Pharaoh fought as a glorious victory, when quite a few of them probably weren’t. Yep - propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2026, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/232 "2026-01-25T11:39:13Z")
If you get vague enough _everything_ is true, right? Of course, this means that if you get vague enough everything van be considered _false_. Not very useful when studying anything, including the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/233 "2026-01-26T17:52:20Z")
I doubt it has anything to do with politics. AFAICT the scholarly consensus is that numbers like that in the Bible had some mystical numerological meaning that’s been forgotten. It’s not like Methuselah is some heroic figure; he’s just one name in a long list of impossibly long-lived people, who is well-known only because his lifespan happens to be the very longest. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/234 "2026-01-26T18:20:57Z")
Claiming an unbroken chain of descent to solidify claims of nationhood is explicitly political. That’s what the King List is for, and OT genealogies are no different, just patriarchs instead of kings. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/235 "2026-01-26T18:59:27Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > In general, Israel was a vassal state of one regional superpower or another for the entire period prior to, potentially, the creation of the modern nation of Israel. One might even argue the same of the modern nation of Israel. Oh, there’s no formal vassalship structure, but it’s still closely tied to the US, and the US is clearly the stronger of the two. > [@Mikestone8](#): > > It’s the same as Methuselah living nine hundred years. That’s just a colourful way of saying that he lived a long time. There probably is significance to Methuselah’s 967 years. First, that works out to 12000 months, or 1000 purely-lunar years, and there are other Middle Eastern cultures that use a purely lunar calendar. So it might be a translation from a tradition of 1000 years in a different culture or an earlier version of the culture. Second, if you count out all of the generations, Methuselah’s time of death would have been at the Flood, or very close to it, suggesting that that was maybe his cause of death, which seems relevant. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/236 "2026-01-26T19:00:34Z")
Wrong thread ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/237 "2026-01-26T21:05:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There probably is significance to Methuselah’s 967 years. As a rule of thumb, I just divide by ten, so the old guy maybe lived to be 96. Which in the ancient time was pretty damn good. This vague “rule” works well with numbers of armies and such . ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/238 "2026-01-26T21:17:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One might even argue the same of the modern nation of Israel. Oh, there’s no formal vassalship structure, but it’s still closely tied to the US, and the US is clearly the stronger of the two. Vassals pay tribute/taxes to their suzerain. I think that would make the US a vassal of Israel, not the other way around. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/239 "2026-01-26T21:38:17Z")
**Moderating:** We have countless threads to discuss USA’s and Israel’s complicated relationship. But I don’t think a comparison of the relationship of the modern state of Israel and the USA has any bearing on the factual nature of the exodus from Egypt and wandering in the desert for 40 years. For a continued discussion of the modern relationship, please seek any one of the recent threads, or spin off a new one, otherwise, no more posting on this subject in this thread. > **How to Reply as a linked Topic** > > Click Reply, in the upper left corner of the reply window is the reply type button, _looks like a curving arrow point to the right_. > > Choose **Reply as linked topic** and it starts a new thread. As an example, you can choose GD, IMHO or The Pit for it. > > That is actually the best method. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2026, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/240 "2026-01-26T23:11:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Second, if you count out all of the generations, Methuselah’s time of death would have been at the Flood, or very close to it, suggesting that that was maybe his cause of death, which seems relevant. Which raises an interesting question: nowhere does it say that the pre-Deluge patriarchs actually died of old age. Has anyone ever hypothesized that the pre-Deluge humans were not merely long-lived, but short of getting killed actually were unaging? ETA: do any other Patriarchs get suddenly cut off at approximately the same date? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=13)