# The story of the Jews escaping slavery in Egypt and wandering the desert is fiction, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2026, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800 "2026-01-18T16:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/261 "2026-01-27T14:31:00Z")
Are there any Karaite traditions re. numerology, gematria, rearranging/interpreting parts of people’s names, etc., to compare to? ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/262 "2026-01-27T14:31:33Z")
And those commentaries are important enough to Judaism that they’re recited at synagogue services and Passover seders. (Whereas you’ll never hear a priest tell his congregation “Open your lectionaries to the commentary of Thomas Aquinas.”) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/263 "2026-01-27T14:35:17Z")
It’s an explicit belief of Judaism that in addition to the written law (the Torah) there were other things that God explained to Moses, and he passed on to the people orally. It’s called (wait for it) the oral law. And, as Babale points out, at some point they decided they needed to write that stuff down too, and wrote the Mishnah. The Prophets and the Writings weren’t part of the written law, either. (That’d be the parts of the Jewish Bible that aren’t the Torah.) Traditionally, they came later, and were written by people, not given by God > [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > And those commentaries are important enough to Judaism that they’re recited at synagogue services and Passover seders. (Whereas you’ll never hear a priest tell his congregation “Open your lectionaries to the commentary of Thomas Aquinas.”) Yes. Some of the discussion in the Talmud is part of the standard Passover seder text. And commentary from the Talmud is regularly discussed at services. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/264 "2026-01-27T14:38:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Any sufficiently-old religion has a lot of the beliefs and practices tucked away in places other than the primary scriptures. Fwiw, the Talmud (including its layers of commentary) is considered to be among the primary scriptures of Judaism. Little kids learn about it in Reform religious school. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/265 "2026-01-27T14:49:47Z")
> [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](#): > > And those commentaries are important enough to Judaism that they’re recited at synagogue services and Passover seders. Yes, they’re literally what defines Rabbinical Judaism. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > It’s an explicit belief of Judaism that in addition to the written law (the Torah) there were other things that God explained to Moses, and he passed on to the people orally. It’s called (wait for it) the oral law. And, as Babale points out, at some point they decided they needed to write that stuff down too, and wrote the Mishnah. And even if you’re secular and don’t believe that the Mishnah is literally divinely inspired and passed down orally since Moses, it’s still the defining central text that sets Rabbinical Judaism apart from Temple era Judaism. From that perspecrive it’s “fanfiction” in the same sense that the New Testament or the Quran are. I guess if you’re the edgiest edgelord that’s a position you might take. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > The Prophets and the Writings weren’t part of the written law, either. (That’d be the parts of the Jewish Bible that aren’t the Torah.) Traditionally, they came later, and were written by people, not given by God I’d argue that the Mishnah is second only to the Torah in its importance to Rabbinical Judaism, and definitely more central than Nevi’im or Ketuvim. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > Yes. Some of the discussion in the Talmud is part of the standard Passover seder text. And commentary from the Talmud is regularly discussed at services. Every Torah book (not scroll, the books they hand out for you to follow along with during the Torah portion reading) I’ve seen used at services included a selection of commentaries right there on the page. As a kid, I was always a fast reader, and always found services quite boring; but I loved reading the commentaries on the Torah portions. They were very entertaining; Rabbis disagreed with one another quite vehemently at times. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/266 "2026-01-27T15:13:49Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Are there any Karaite traditions re. numerology, gematria, rearranging/interpreting parts of people’s names, etc., to compare to? I’m not an expert on Karaites, and they may have such traditions regarding interpreting the names of people _outside_ the Tanakh, but they would _not_ have any such traditions regarding interpretation of the Tanakh itself because what makes them Karaites is the belief that there is no divinely inspired oral Torah, only the written books, and that all people should read them for themselves (in the original Hebrew and Aramaic if possible, because translations are interpretations) and interpret them based on the _Peshat_, or simple meaning, of the words. Rabbinical interpretation does look at the _Peshat_ as well, but then it applies quite a few other forms of analysis, including Gematria as you mention. My understanding is that Karaites look down on that practice, so I would guess they don’t do it in other contexts either, but I could be wrong about that. Actually, that leads me down a curious line of thinking. Rabbinical Judaism loves the story of Jacob wrestling the angel of God and getting the name Israel as a result (which means something like “he who competed with or struggled against God”). And the takeaway for Rabbinical Judaism is an affirmation of the idea of the Mishnah, of competing interpretations of the text in order to uncover more and more meaning through the process. It’s a central tenet of Rabbinical Judaism. I wonder what Karaites make of that passage. Presumably, they take it more literally? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/267 "2026-01-27T17:20:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > I’d argue that the Mishnah is second only to the Torah in its importance to Rabbinical Judaism, and definitely more central than Nevi’im or Ketuvim. Yes, that’s where i was going with that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/268 "2026-01-27T17:40:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Claiming an unbroken chain of descent to solidify claims of nationhood is explicitly political. That’s what the King List is for, and OT genealogies are no different, just patriarchs instead of kings. There are lots of genealogies in the Torah for which that comment would be valid, but Methuselah lived before the Flood, so by definition has no descendants whose claims could be solidified. Indeed, Jewish tradition teaches that God arranged for everyone to descend from Noah precisely so that no person or nation would be able to claim its heritage is greater than any other. Materialist interpretations are all very well, but they don’t explain the existence of every single verse in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/269 "2026-01-27T18:14:46Z")
You still need a line of patriarchs leading up to Noah. Completists. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/270 "2026-01-27T19:07:07Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There are lots of genealogies in the Torah for which that comment would be valid, but Methuselah lived before the Flood, so by definition has no descendants whose claims could be solidified. Rather, _everyone_ would be able to claim descent from him, because he is Noah’s grandfather. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/271 "2026-01-27T19:24:45Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > He can make the sun rise but can’t move a stone block? Who said Pharoah made the sun rise? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/272 "2026-01-27T19:39:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Who said Pharoah made the sun rise? From Google KI, couldn’t find a better cite quickly, but this is consistent with many sources I’ve read before: > [@](#): > > In Ancient Egyptian belief, the Pharaoh played a vital role in maintaining cosmic order (_maat_), which included supporting the sun god Ra in his daily journey to make the sun rise. While Ra was the primary deity responsible for the sun’s movement, the pharaoh was considered his representative on earth and, in some contexts, was believed to ensure the continuity of this daily cycle. Or if you meant who the Egyptians told so: the priests of course. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/273 "2026-01-27T20:20:45Z")
But could he sprinkle it with dew? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/274 "2026-01-27T20:26:58Z")
Sorry, I don’t get that, seems like I’ve been whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/275 "2026-01-27T20:28:59Z")
Did you just know that off the top of your head?! ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/276 "2026-01-27T20:32:28Z")
Cover it with chocolate and a miracle or two? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/277 "2026-01-27T20:43:45Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Did you just know that off the top of your head?! No, I’ve actually pretty much only heard of Metuselah in the context of SciFi using his name metaphorically for long age. He’s a minor footnote in the Bible. But this thread made me curious about his name, because it doesn’t SOUND Hebrew whatsoever (especially because I’ve often heard it said with a soft T, or at least I thought I did, like Methuselah). So I wanted to know what his name is supposed to sound like before you translate it to Greek, then Latin, then English. Turns out, it’s more like “meh-toe-sha-lakh” with a hard Khet at the end. When I looked that up, I saw that he is Noah’s grandfather. But I mean, it makes sense - I don’t think he does anything notable, so the only reason he’d be listed is if he is related to someone important. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/278 "2026-01-27T21:02:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > (especially because I’ve often heard it said with a soft T, or at least I thought I did, like Methuselah) FWIW, that’s how I’ve always heard it pronounced, too. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/279 "2026-01-27T21:09:58Z")
There’s very little that sounds less Hebrew than a soft T. [https://forvo.com/word/מתושלח/](https://forvo.com/word/%D7%9E%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%97/) As an aside, that’s why “Sabbath” really grates my ears. It’s “Shabbat”! ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2026, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/280 "2026-01-27T21:16:37Z")
If there’s not a Hebrew language metal cover band out there called Black Shabbat, it’s a missed opportunity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=15)