# The story of the Jews escaping slavery in Egypt and wandering the desert is fiction, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2026, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800 "2026-01-18T16:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/361 "2026-04-29T18:47:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So…your answer is practically never? Scrolling through the thread, I can’t think of a question that was asked where “practically never” is a grammatically correct much less sensible answer, so I’m gonna say that no, my answer isn’t “practically never”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/362 "2026-04-29T18:51:10Z")
I would say that applying the term “practically never” to a situation involving reducing millions of Jews to a single family that it _might_ have happened to wouldn’t be unreasonable. With those standards you would be hard pressed to find _any_ dismissible stories in the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/363 "2026-04-29T18:51:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is it strong evidence that it is mythological? More the trope: “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” Again, IMHO, there’s likely a few general hints of history buried in there _somewhere_ (say the semitic tribes leaving Egypt whether from “abuse” or a charismatic leader) but almost all the details and conclusions being scripted as part of the societal mythbuilding. Thus my comments of “grains” of fact, not even rising to the level of a nugget. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/364 "2026-04-29T18:51:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I would say that applying the term “practically never” to a situation involving reducing millions of Jews to a single family that it _might_ have happened to wouldn’t be unreasonable. “Practically never” _what_? I don’t understand the phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/365 "2026-04-29T18:53:26Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > say the semitic tribes leaving Egypt due to feeling of prosecution At least some of the semitic tribes living in Canaan left Egypt without moving at all, because the borders of Egypt receded from Canaan to what we now consider Egypt around the time period being discussed. Canaanites were moving back and forth from the Nile Delta to modern Israel on a regular basis during the era, of course, as they were Egyptian subjects. So none of the ideas of semitic people living in Egypt, leaving Egypt, or feeling as if they are liberated from Egyptian rule are particularly outlandish. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/366 "2026-04-29T18:54:16Z")
Then change it to “probably didn’t happen”. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/367 "2026-04-29T19:00:56Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > You don’t think that 60,000 people traveling for 4 years would leave behind archeological evidence of their existence? Maybe- but archeological evidence of stuff that far back is almost all ruins. Archeologists cant find evidence of goat herding nomads living in tents. Nothing to find. And the Sinai is huge, desolate and a war zone. > [@griffin1977](#): > > One thing about ancient sources, however reliable, or otherwise, they are _no one_ believes their large numbers for armies, battle casualties, populations, etc. Right. > [@griffin1977](#): > > Whether or not the Exodus story has some basis in fact its safe to say the numbers mentioned do not, any more than the casualty numbers at the battle of Cannae or the number of Persians at the Battle of Marathon. Correct. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > “There are no recordings of it happening, and no trace whatsoever left behind, but it was still a major event?” There are traces. Suddenly the Israelite tribes stopped being nomadic goat herders and started (slowly) taking over the holy land. What prompted that? We have almost no written records from that era and that area. Even the Egyptian records are incomplete, and not reliable. > [@Jasmine](#): > > " Modern archaeology shows the pyramids were likely built by a skilled, rotated workforce of roughly **20,000–30,000 laborers** , not slaves, working over 20–30 years." Yes, but Egypt was a slave society. Showing that the most of the labor was done by farmers outside of the growing season, led by some skilled artisans doesnt disprove Egypt had LOTS of slaves and raided their neighbors for slaves. > [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > Ahem, the myth that the Hebrew slaves built the pyramids is a modern, non-biblical one. Right, well at least not during the Fourth Dynasty. Remember, Josephus was writing about 2500 years after the pyramids were built. > [@Lumpy](#): > > “Slaves” in any case is an exaggeration; what the Israelites were subject to was a tax in the form of draft labor. No, the Egyptians- as well as most of the ancient world- raided neighboring areas for slaves. They even bragged about it on steles and walls. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > As for archeological records, I find the argument that the lack of evidence is “proof” of it being mythological unconvincing. As said upthread, Egyptian written records seem to be predominantly pro-state/ruler propaganda. And unsettled societies are going to leave _less_ evidence, given the likely historical exaggeration of the population in question. Good points. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/368 "2026-04-29T19:03:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There are traces. Suddenly the Israelite tribes stopped being nomadic goat herders and started (slowly) taking over the holy land. What prompted that? Is there evidence that this happened, or is this another assumption made to support the original assuption? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/369 "2026-04-29T19:13:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but Egypt was a slave society. True, slave societies were quite common back then. If the original estimates are to be believed, then the nation of Israel was 5 or 6 hundred thousand people. I highly doubt that Egypt would have wanted or would have been able to maintain that number. If the revised and more modern estimates are to be believed, the nation of Israel numbered around thirty thousand. That would have been just right for the job that needed to be done. I represent a “hung jury” as far as a final determination is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/370 "2026-04-29T19:15:39Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > That would have been just right for the job that needed to be done. What do you think was “the job needed to be done”? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/371 "2026-04-29T19:16:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there evidence that this happened, It did happen. There is archeological evidence. It was less a short term violent invasion, than a slower take-over, but the Kingdom of Israel came out of nowhere relatively fast- archeology wise . > **[The Amarna Letters: Proof of Israel’s Invasion of Canaan?](https://armstronginstitute.org/881-the-amarna-letters-proof-of-israels-invasion-of-canaan)** > > The ancient Habiru battled their way through Canaan during the 14th century B.C.E. Who were these people? > **[ADA375170.pdf](https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA375170.pdf)** > With each of these threats, the Israelites massed their forces and arose victorious over seemingly superior Canaanite forces. Following those two key battles, the power of the Canaanite City kingdoms was effectively broken and the land was open for the taking. The groups of Israelites tnen dispersed to occupy their lands. (Refer to the following map, Conclusion Map 4 188) For a time the Israelite society remained predominantly semi-nomadic but eventually transitioned to a sedentary city based society. Over time, the Israelites’ power and numbers grew which allowed them to capture the strongest of the remaining Canaanite cities. Surviving Canaanites were assimilated into Israelite society and Israelite culture over took Canaanite culture. Again, the stories of the great battles- “Joshua fought the Battle of Jericho” were myth and legend. But somehow the Israelites took over the Holy land in what was a relatively short period of time (hundreds of years, not thousands) and moved from being nomadic goat herders to city dwelling farmers- with still lots of goat and sheep herders, of course. So, we dont how how long it took and how it took (there were some battles of course), but it happened. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/372 "2026-04-29T19:17:01Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > What do you think was “the job needed to be done”? Are you kidding?! This whole discussion is about who and how many built the pyramids. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/373 "2026-04-29T19:19:19Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Are you kidding?! This whole discussion is about who and how many built the pyramids. Are YOU kidding? This thread never had anything to do with Hebrews building the pyramids, until you brought up that misinformation. This thread is about the Biblical story of the Exodus and its possible historicity, which has nothing to do with pyramids. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/374 "2026-04-29T19:22:31Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > This thread is about the Biblical story of the Exodus and its possible historicity, which has nothing to do with pyramids. There wouldn’t have been an “Exodus” if there was no place to exit from, and the assertion is that Egypt was the place they exited from was because of their enslavement, the purpose of which, allegedly, was to build the pyramids. I don’t see how you can just separate all of that because it all is very interdependent. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/375 "2026-04-29T19:26:19Z")
The Armstrong Institute, part of the unaccredited Herbert W. Armstrong College, is not a “cite”. It is a bad joke. Here is a link to the Wiki page of the Philadelphia Church Of God if you want to see their standards/beliefs [Philadelphia Church of God - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Church_of_God#Affiliated_organizations) ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/376 "2026-04-29T19:26:57Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > There wouldn’t have been an “Exodus” if there was no place to exit from, and the assertion is that Egypt was the place they exited from was because of their enslavement, the purpose of which, allegedly, was to build the pyramids. Have you read the last 40 or 50 posts and noticed that people have asserted that “Hebrews building pyramids” is a non-biblical myth that started with Flavius Josephus, a Jewish-Roman historian who lived 2,500 years after the building of the pyramids and 1,200 years after the alleged time of Exodus? This thread has nothing to do with it, it’s a sidetrack, caused by a, I’ll give you that, common misconception. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/377 "2026-04-29T19:31:03Z")
The question I was responding to was: > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can we talk about _this_ situation? How far can you reduce the number of Jews leaving Egypt and still keep it off the “Probably never happened at all” list? Neither “practically never” nor “probably didn’t happen” are parsable responses to that question. If you want to know my position on the Exodus overall, it’s probably a cultural narrative based on the real experience of the proto-Israelites under Egyptian rule, whether in Canaan or Egypt proper. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/378 "2026-04-29T19:31:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > With those standards you would be hard pressed to find _any_ dismissible stories in the Bible. Since my goal isn’t to “find dismissible stories in the Bible”, that’s fine by me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/379 "2026-04-29T19:36:32Z")
But isn’t the question “Did it actually happen?”, and not “What might have caused it to happen?” ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2026, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800/380 "2026-04-29T19:36:34Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > There wouldn’t have been an “Exodus” if there was no place to exit from, and the assertion is that Egypt was the place they exited from was because of their enslavement, the purpose of which, allegedly, was to build the pyramids. Who is doing the alleging here? Certainly not the biblical sources that describe the Israelites building the cities of Pithom and Ramses but not any pyramids? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-story-of-the-jews-escaping-slavery-in-egypt-and-wandering-the-desert-is-fiction-right/1026800.md?page=20)