# The Straight Dope On ESP. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2016, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173 "2016-04-26T08:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/261 "2016-05-06T05:02:26Z")
> [@Tibby or Not Tibby](#): > > Indeed, we did develop speech, but that’s not exactly “stealth” communication. . . . Scenario: grin! Actually, sounds can be pretty stealthy. “When I hoot like an owl, attack. When I whistle like a shrike, retreat. When I bellow, ‘Oh, hell,’ come and get me out of the poison ivy.” Also, of course, it’s somewhat stealthy if one doesn’t know the language. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes… Absolutely certainly, ESP would be an advantage. If we could read the minds of others against their will, that would be a huge game-changer. Evolution would immediately reward the development of this talent. That, alas, is one of the reasons people suspect it doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/262 "2016-05-06T10:09:12Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > It isn’t comparable to Atlantis or a fountain of youth (or a belief in the Easter bunny as you spun it previously) there aren’t tens of millions of people who claim that they personally have been to Atlantis, or have seen an Easter bunny. These are myths that few people claimed and then lots of people believed. Argumentum ad populum. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/263 "2016-05-06T14:40:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’m claiming you’re just rewording the question and repeating it back to me, instead of just answering it. You can play your stalling tactics with someone else. It would help if you actually said what your objection is. Tell me why you disagree and I might be able to answer it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/264 "2016-05-06T14:45:14Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Argumentum ad populum. And where is he getting those numbers, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/265 "2016-05-06T16:34:26Z")
> [@Kron](#): > > I definitely can’t think of a single thing that went from paranormal to accepted science. I mean, tectonic theory wasn’t exactly in the realm of angels dancing on pins or Kirlian photography of “life auras”. The germ theory of disease? Were microbial pathogens considered woo when the miasma theory held sway? I know there was a lot of resistance to Joseph Lister, but it was more about his religion. Not staking a position here, I honestly don’t know. But at least disease was a real, measurable phenomenon, not something that may or may not even exist (e.g. ghosts or reincarnation or clairvoyance), which may be the distinction between " paranormal" and “unexplained natural”. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/266 "2016-05-06T18:11:41Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > - This is going by 2nd ed AD&D, the edition which most closely approached perfection. PREACH IT BROTHER! qwertyu ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/267 "2016-05-06T22:02:38Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Argumentum ad populum. Drive by logical fallacy claims are always very witty. But I’m not saying “millions of people believe in ESP therefore it must be true” - I’m saying millions of people have observations that warrant more investigation into what causes them. Quod longe secus est. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/268 "2016-05-06T23:00:38Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Drive by logical fallacy claims are always very witty. But I’m not saying “millions of people believe in ESP therefore it must be true” - I’m saying millions of people have observations that warrant more investigation into what causes them. Quod longe secus est. What you’re _saying_ is that _tens_ of millions have this experience, and before you were saying that _tens_ of millions were believers. 1. Which is it? 2. Where did you get this figure? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/269 "2016-05-07T00:00:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What you’re _saying_ is that _tens_ of millions have this experience, and before you were saying that _tens_ of millions were believers. > > 1. Which is it? > 2. Where did you get this figure? Could you point to the quote where I said that tens of millions were believers and not simply had observed things that warrant research? Because I think you were just seeing what you wanted to see in my statements. If you’re interested in what I meant instead of what you want to read into my statements, that number is a very loose, and likely very low, estimate of everyone who has observed some of the phenomena under discussion. i.e. sometimes had a ‘feeling’ they were being stared at, thought of an old friend only to have them call at that moment, recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance, etc. Any one such observation (which are almost universal and likely number far higher than tens of millions over recorded time) is easily dismissed as coincidence, selection bias, imagination,etc. But when looked at in the big picture, the number of such observations, spanning many generations, across all cultures, education levels, and geographical locations, is more than sufficient reason for anyone to decide they want to research possible causes other than mere coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/270 "2016-05-07T00:07:58Z")
_Where did the number come from?_ ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/271 "2016-05-07T00:10:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > _Where did the number come from?_ It’s the number of times you fail to read or comprehend what someone has just written. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/272 "2016-05-07T00:18:40Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > It’s the number of times you fail to read or comprehend what someone has just written. Did you make it up from a wild guess, or did you read it somewhere? BTW, including every single incident of “feeling” of being stared at, coincidence where people call when you think of them, and crap like that to inflate your number is rather pathetic, and your > [@](#): > > recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance… claim? I _definitely_ want to see a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/273 "2016-05-07T00:28:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > BTW, including every single incident of “feeling” of being stared at, coincidence where people call when you think of them, and crap like that to inflate your number is rather pathetic, … Why do you think that is the case? The number you’re disputing is a probably low estimate of how many people have had some observation like that. So including every single person who has had an observation like that is an attempt to inflate the number? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > … and your claim? I _definitely_ want to see a cite for that. Post #241 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/274 "2016-05-07T00:47:58Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Why do you think that is the case? The number you’re disputing is a probably low estimate of how many people have had some observation like that. So including every single person who has had an observation like that is an attempt to inflate the number? So it’s a padded guess. Thank you. > [@](#): > > Post #241 I saw that. You pushed woo study and a woo book. The division that did that rather loose study also(according to their website) studies: Out of Body Experiences Apparitions and After-Death Communications Deathbed Visions Psychophysiological Studies of Altered States of Consciousness and Psi EEG Imaging Lab: Experimental Research of Psi Effects and Altered States of Consiousness. Now how about linking to a case that pertains to the specific claim you made: a person that “recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance”? ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/275 "2016-05-07T01:03:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So it’s a padded guess. Thank you No I think it’s a very low estimate. You’re welcome. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I saw that. You pushed woo study and a woo book. The division that did that rather loose study also(according to their website) studies: > Out of Body Experiences > Apparitions and After-Death Communications > Deathbed Visions > Psychophysiological Studies of Altered States of Consciousness and Psi > EEG Imaging Lab: Experimental Research of Psi Effects and Altered States of Consiousness. I’m not pushing anything. I linked to current, credible research that is going on into a subject that another poster expressed interest in. How is listing other things the University of Virginia is researching supposed to be some kind of counter-argument to that simple fact? And absolutely nothing that you’ve had to say at any point in this entire thread indicates to me that you’re qualified to determine their research is woo. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now how about linking to a case that pertains to the specific claim you made: a person that “recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance”? You claim to have just read it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/276 "2016-05-07T01:14:28Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > You claim to have just read it. That’s the name of a book. Where is one specific case that fulfills your specific claim? By the way, you should do a little background check on your sources…but you _have_ been told that several times before, haven’t you? [Here’s a little background information about](http://skepdic.com/stevenson.html) the Division of Perceptual Studies, it’s founder, and the rather loose research that lead to the book you’re pushing, _Old Souls_. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/277 "2016-05-07T02:25:50Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > It’s the number of times you fail to read or comprehend what someone has just written. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did you make it up from a wild guess, or did you read it somewhere? > BTW, including every single incident of “feeling” of being stared at, coincidence where people call when you think of them, and crap like that to inflate your number is rather pathetic, and your claim? I _definitely_ want to see a cite for that. **Moderator Note** Let’s dial it back. No warnings issued. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/278 "2016-05-07T03:09:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s the name of a book. Where is one specific case that fulfills your specific claim? > By the way, you should do a little background check on your sources…but you _have_ been told that several times before, haven’t you? [Here’s a little background information about](http://skepdic.com/stevenson.html) the Division of Perceptual Studies, it’s founder, and the rather loose research that lead to the book you’re pushing, _Old Souls_. Let’s just review: I said that among the observations people have made, which number in the tens of millions over time (the point you were originally arguing against) are: > [@Crazyhorse](#): > > …that number is a very loose, and likely very low, estimate of everyone who has observed some of the phenomena under discussion. i.e. sometimes had a ‘feeling’ they were being stared at, thought of an old friend only to have them call at that moment, recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance, etc. Instead of conceding that if that was my criteria then you agree it is probably at least tens of millions if not more, you change the goalposts and want to see a cite about one of those particular observations, given as offhand examples of the types of things people have observed. You have dropped all discussion of the original point you were incorrectly arguing, and instead now want to focus on one minor point given as an offhand example in that original discussion. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > I _definitely_ want to see a cite for that. So, I linked to a page of current research at university of Virginia that includes study of people’s observations of that one offhand example - one of the many things that would add into the tens of millions number you were originally arguing against. > [@](#): > > Utilizing scientific methods, the researchers within The Division of Perceptual Studies investigate apparent paranormal phenomena especially in the following areas of research: > > Children Who Claim to Remember Previous Lives > > Some young children, usually between the ages of 2 and 5, speak about memories of a previous life they claim to have lived. At the same time they often show behaviors, such as phobias or preferences, that are unusual within the context of their particular family and cannot be explained by any current life events. These memories appear to be concordant with the child’s statements about a previous life. In many cases of this type, the child’s statements have been shown to correspond accurately to facts in the life and death of a deceased person. Some of the children have birthmarks and birth defects that correspond to wounds or other marks on the deceased person whose life is being remembered by the child. In numerous cases postmortem reports have confirmed these correspondences. Older children may retain these apparent memories, but generally they seem to fade around the age of 7 . > The research staff at the Division of Perceptual Studies has been investigating these cases since 1961 and have published numerous articles and books about them. There is also a list of books on reincarnation which includes one book about Dr. Stevenson’s work by Tom Shroder, editor at the Washington Post at the time of the publication of the book. This book is called “Old Souls” and was published in 1999 after Mr. Shroder spent a great deal of time observing Dr. Stevenson investigating cases in the field. The young subjects of these cases have been found all over the world including Europe and North America. Now you are changing the goalposts yet again, and want to make it a discussion about whether or not that research is conducted “loosely” or up to your standards. I would suggest saving these arguments for a thread where someone is claiming that any particular report or study of paranormal whatever is true or has been proven. My interest in the thread is the discussion of what research has been done and what research continues. > [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > Let’s dial it back. No warnings issued. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator No offense or insult intended. It was an objective statement. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/279 "2016-05-07T04:28:31Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > No offense or insult intended. It was an objective statement. [Moderating] Let’s avoid such remarks anyway. They are not helpful. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/280 "2016-05-07T04:51:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Absolutely certainly, ESP would be an advantage. If we could read the minds of others against their will, that would be a huge game-changer. Evolution would immediately reward the development of this talent. That, alas, is one of the reasons people suspect it doesn’t exist. 1. And furthermore, the tiny slivers of ESP allegedly measured in Princeton would have no selective advantage at all. 2. Actually we can read minds against the will of others. We do it by reading faces. We can also put up thought shields by disguising our facial expressions. We can also sometimes see through those disguises… Human intelligence shows every sign of being the result of an arms race among social creatures. (Well actually the evidence is mixed, but I’m on a roll.) Back on page one, Chronos said this: > [@Chronos](#): > > The sad thing is, humans really are capable of some very interesting things, which all too often get overlooked behind the murky cloud of paranormal BS. For instance, some people are very good at reading facial expressions, posture, microgestures, and the like, which leads them to be very good at interpreting others’ moods and thought processes. This is all perfectly natural, and won’t win you the Randi prize or anything… but it can look an awful lot like telepathy, which makes it impossible to study. I say that future studies of ESP should be made in the field rather than the laboratory and focus on the P (perception) while using beliefs about ES to motivate the investigation. For example, some people _think_ there’s a staring behind the head effect: I’m guessing it’s a form of extrapolation off of something they saw out of the corner their eye. If a woman walks into a room and sees a dude’s head track her movements, it wouldn’t surprise me if she perceived his attention even when her back was turned. Nor would it surprise me if she was correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173.md?page=15)