# The Straight Dope On ESP. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2016, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173 "2016-04-26T08:17:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/21 "2016-04-26T17:00:37Z")
Another problem with those studies, which is very difficult to solve: Suppose that a major university, or the Department of Defense, or whoever is studying ESP. Eventually, they find that it doesn’t work. But meanwhile, what’s the headline? “Harvard researchers studying ESP”. A lot of people are going to look at a headline like that and conclude that there _must_ be something to it, or else why would they be studying it? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/22 "2016-04-26T17:01:04Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > While I agree, ESP as we currently image it to manifest, has been well debunked. I don’t find it too hard to imagine that there are, or might yet prove to be, ‘extra senses’ we have simply yet to uncover. > > If dogs can predict seizures and detect cancer, I don’t see it as impossible that we too have some subtle senses at work that we aren’t currently aware of. Remain to be detected. > > (Not ESP as you were thinking perhaps, yet still ‘extra’ sensory!) We have lots of such “hidden” senses that aren’t strictly vision, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. So for example the semicircular canals that control balance are sense organs, but they aren’t part of any of the above senses. Or the carbon dioxide sensors that create the feeling of really needing to breathe. And “touch” is really a laundry list of different sensors that are only loosely related, such as warmth, cold, pressure, pain, touch, proprioception, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/23 "2016-04-26T17:24:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Was there more, shall we say, open mindedness about ESP in the 60s among actual scientists or was it just the hippy-dippy atmosphere of the time? Age of Aquarius, etc. I was a kid in the 60s, but it did seem like at least there were more experiments going on, and perhaps that was the era of debunking…? Mental powers (I’m going to use ESP for shorthand) have been a major part of science fiction since at least the 1930s. For example the Lensman series has heroes who alternate between creating high-tech rockets, blasters, and explosives and developing their mind for telepathy, telekinesis, and other mental abilities, and it’s not abnormal in that respect. There was a feeling like ‘the science of the mind’ was something we were about to tap into in a big way, just like nuclear power or warp travel, and there wasn’t the accumulated evidence against ESP. As time went on and ESP moved further away from being real science, ESP was just sort of grandfathered in as having always been part of science fiction, sort of like FTL drives (but not as needed). It kept on through the 60s and 70s with Star Trek, but it’s not like it stopped; TNG and other ST spinoffs, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, Farscape, and other relatively hard SF shows from the 90s to today kept it. I don’t think it can really be called a 60s “Age of Aquarius” thing because it started back in the pulp magazine days and continued up until today. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/24 "2016-04-26T17:47:47Z")
Yes, it was grandfathered in along with robots who cry because they don’t have emotions, sexy green-skinned alien space babes, and space ships that exactly replicate the sailing ships of the Napoleonic age. It’s such a part of the background of science fiction that it doesn’t raise eyebrows. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/25 "2016-04-26T17:48:34Z")
I’ll grant you the others, but _Battlestar Galactica_ didn’t really have psionics. It had just plain magic. Oh, and don’t forget _Firefly_. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/26 "2016-04-26T18:00:07Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > We have lots of such “hidden” senses that aren’t strictly vision, hearing, smell, taste, and touch. So for example the semicircular canals that control balance are sense organs, but they aren’t part of any of the above senses. Or the carbon dioxide sensors that create the feeling of really needing to breathe. And “touch” is really a laundry list of different sensors that are only loosely related, such as warmth, cold, pressure, pain, touch, proprioception, and so on. Agreed. It’s a [myth](http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2010/07/humans-have-a-lot-more-than-five-senses/) that there are only 5 senses. We have many more, and there is plenty of room for study of how those senses work with having to resort to “extra sensory” hypotheses. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/27 "2016-04-26T18:24:03Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > It’s such a part of the background of science fiction that it doesn’t raise eyebrows. How much of that is due to the influence of [John W. Campbell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Campbell#Pseudoscience_and_fringe_politics)? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/28 "2016-04-26T18:27:47Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > How much of that is due to the influence of [John W. Campbell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_W._Campbell#Pseudoscience_and_fringe_politics)? See post #15. ---
**Author:** ![JcWoman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jcwoman/32/2889_2.png) [@JcWoman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JcWoman)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/29 "2016-04-26T18:57:45Z")
[deleted] sorry mis-post ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/30 "2016-04-26T19:18:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, and don’t forget _Firefly_. \*Wash: [about River] Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science-fiction. Zoë: We live in a spaceship, dear. Wash: So?\*Psionics are a trope of science fiction to be sure, but so are many other implausible things such as interspecies breeding, teleportation, vehicles which can change direction instantaneously, artificially produced gravity that continues to work even when the ship’s power and life systems are failiing, et cetera. In reality, if extrasensory perception, telekinesis, precognition, or purported psionic powers worked on some fundamental physical and heritable biological principles they would provide such an evolutionary and reproductive advantage we’d expect everyone to have them. Statistically, not a single properly conducted blind study has demonstrated psionic powers to any credible degree of confidence, and those that claim some minor degree of statistical significance (usually at the bse 50% confidence level) have almost always been later shown to have gross methodological errors. James Randi’s Project Alpha (Wikipedia actually has a [URL=[Project Alpha - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha)]good summary) thoroughly exposed methodolgoical errors in the study even by scientists who were attempting to follow objective protocols leading to false positives from obvious trickery. There is physically no mechanism for almost all forms of so-called extrasensory perception to actually work, and no way at all for telekinesis, pyrokinesis, et cetera to be applied. Until someone can unambiguously demonstrate a clear capability to read minds or float bowling balls by the effort of will, I think the default assumption has to be that ESP and psionic powers are in the same category as cantrips and unicorns. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/31 "2016-04-26T19:18:43Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > While I agree, ESP as we currently image it to manifest, has been well debunked. I don’t find it too hard to imagine that there are, or might yet prove to be, ‘extra senses’ we have simply yet to uncover. > > If dogs can predict seizures and detect cancer, I don’t see it as impossible that we too have some subtle senses at work that we aren’t currently aware of. Remain to be detected. Except they use their ordinary sense to do those things, not some unknown 6th sense. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/32 "2016-04-26T19:31:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another problem with those studies, which is very difficult to solve: Suppose that a major university, or the Department of Defense, or whoever is studying ESP. Eventually, they find that it doesn’t work. But meanwhile, what’s the headline? “Harvard researchers studying ESP”. A lot of people are going to look at a headline like that and conclude that there _must_ be something to it, or else why would they be studying it? Well, another common issue is that, in the 60s-70s, but occasionally more recently, there were a lot of scientists who understood from physics/etc how to set up a study that was statistically valid, but did not have an appreciation for how complex human beings are compared to, say, electrons. Electrons don’t come up with surprisingly creative ways to cheat on tests, or (possibly unconsciously) pick up on subtle cues from people administering tests. Plus there’s always the 1 in 20 studies that finds a illusionary but statistically valid association just by chance. So there were a few bunches of studies that really did show statistically! valid! evidence! for ESP. The researchers with more intellectual honesty and fortitude to question themselves would then eventually put things in place to eliminate various ways of potential cheating, and their subsequent studies showed no evidence. But the first, flawed, ones were the ones that true believers trumpeted Why people want to believe in ESP is another matter, and maybe the question that really explains the hype. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/33 "2016-04-26T19:54:35Z")
A guy named Dean Radin is one of the legitimate and well credentialed scientists who hasn’t given up on the idea. Anyone interested in the subject can find [list of peer-reviewed studies](http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm) he maintans on his website. > [@](#): > > Wikipedia describes parapsychology as a “pseudoscience,” meaning it might superficially resemble science, but it isn’t really about science. Wikipedia is wrong about many things, including this topic. > > In fact, the Parapsychological Association – the international professional organization for scientists and scholars interested in psi phenomena – is an elected affiliate of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the largest scientific organization in the world. Among the criteria that the AAAS Council uses to decide if an organization is suitable for consideration as an affiliate is that the organization’s aims must be “clearly directed toward, or consistent with, the objectives of the AAAS.” Those objectives includes the promotion of science, not pseudoscience. > > Other commonly repeated critiques about psi research, such as “these phenomena are impossible,” “there’s no valid scientific evidence,” or “the results are all due to fraud,” have been soundly rejected for many decades. Informed debates today are based on discussions of theoretical models, the empirical evidence, and interpretation of that evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/34 "2016-04-26T19:58:39Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > A guy named Dean Radin is one of the legitimate and well credentialed scientists who hasn’t given up on the idea. Anyone interested in the subject can find [list of peer-reviewed studies](http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm) he maintans on his website. That’s nice. What’s the _best_ evidence he’s found? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/35 "2016-04-26T20:11:53Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Plus there’s always the 1 in 20 studies that finds a illusionary but statistically valid association just by chance. So there were a few bunches of studies that really did show statistically! valid! evidence! for ESP. [Obligatory XKCD cartoon.](https://xkcd.com/882/) ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/36 "2016-04-26T20:14:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s nice. > What’s the _best_ evidence he’s found? I don’t know. Why don’t you read the studies and find out? I’m not taking a position supporting or denying what he has to say, just offering the information in the interest of fighting ignorance to anyone who is actually interested in the subject and would like to know what a legitimate scientist is doing in the area instead of relying on woo doctors on one side, and nay-saying amateurs on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/37 "2016-04-26T20:25:21Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > I don’t know. Why don’t you read the studies and find out? > > I’m not taking a position supporting or denying what he has to say, just offering the information in the interest of fighting ignorance to anyone who is actually interested in the subject and would like to know what a legitimate scientist is doing in the area instead of relying on woo doctors on one side, and nay-saying amateurs on the other. No, I am NOT going to “read all the studies and find out”, since _you_ are the one that brought them up in the first place as some sort of counter-example of this being anything but woo. Dean Radin could have a pile of promising studies a mile wide and ten miles high, but they aren’t worth a bucket of slug spit if not a one of them fulfill on those promises. ---
**Author:** ![Crazyhorse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazyhorse/32/31_2.png) [@Crazyhorse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazyhorse)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/38 "2016-04-26T20:32:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No, I am NOT going to “read all the studies and find out”, since _you_ are the one that brought them up in the first place as some sort of counter-example of this being anything but woo. Dean Radin could have a pile of promising studies a mile wide and ten miles high, but they aren’t worth a bucket of slug spit if not a one of them fulfill on those promises. Well I explained why I provided the information in this thread. With your permission I will go ahead and leave it here for anyone who is actually interested in the subject, and they can consider your input for what is worth as well. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/39 "2016-04-26T20:34:09Z")
Too late to edit: If you are talking about [this Dean Radin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Radin), I wouldn’t trust his ability to gather information about the subject, let alone pass judgment on it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173/40 "2016-04-26T20:37:52Z")
> [@Crazyhorse](#): > > Well I explained why I provided the information in this thread. With your permission I will go ahead and leave it here for anyone who is actually interested in the subject, and they can consider your input for what is worth as well. We already know that there are an uncountable number of studies out there. The question is: Are there _any_ in the ones that you just added to the pile that point to positive, verifiable evidence for the existence of ESP? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-esp/753173.md?page=3)