Scenario: grin! Actually, sounds can be pretty stealthy. “When I hoot like an owl, attack. When I whistle like a shrike, retreat. When I bellow, ‘Oh, hell,’ come and get me out of the poison ivy.”
Also, of course, it’s somewhat stealthy if one doesn’t know the language. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes…
Absolutely certainly, ESP would be an advantage. If we could read the minds of others against their will, that would be a huge game-changer. Evolution would immediately reward the development of this talent. That, alas, is one of the reasons people suspect it doesn’t exist.
The germ theory of disease? Were microbial pathogens considered woo when the miasma theory held sway? I know there was a lot of resistance to Joseph Lister, but it was more about his religion.
Not staking a position here, I honestly don’t know. But at least disease was a real, measurable phenomenon, not something that may or may not even exist (e.g. ghosts or reincarnation or clairvoyance), which may be the distinction between " paranormal" and “unexplained natural”.
Drive by logical fallacy claims are always very witty. But I’m not saying “millions of people believe in ESP therefore it must be true” - I’m saying millions of people have observations that warrant more investigation into what causes them. Quod longe secus est.
Could you point to the quote where I said that tens of millions were believers and not simply had observed things that warrant research? Because I think you were just seeing what you wanted to see in my statements.
If you’re interested in what I meant instead of what you want to read into my statements, that number is a very loose, and likely very low, estimate of everyone who has observed some of the phenomena under discussion. i.e. sometimes had a ‘feeling’ they were being stared at, thought of an old friend only to have them call at that moment, recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance, etc.
Any one such observation (which are almost universal and likely number far higher than tens of millions over recorded time) is easily dismissed as coincidence, selection bias, imagination,etc. But when looked at in the big picture, the number of such observations, spanning many generations, across all cultures, education levels, and geographical locations, is more than sufficient reason for anyone to decide they want to research possible causes other than mere coincidence.
Did you make it up from a wild guess, or did you read it somewhere?
BTW, including every single incident of “feeling” of being stared at, coincidence where people call when you think of them, and crap like that to inflate your number is rather pathetic, and your
Why do you think that is the case? The number you’re disputing is a probably low estimate of how many people have had some observation like that. So including every single person who has had an observation like that is an attempt to inflate the number?
I saw that. You pushed woo study and a woo book. The division that did that rather loose study also(according to their website) studies:
Out of Body Experiences
Apparitions and After-Death Communications
Deathbed Visions
Psychophysiological Studies of Altered States of Consciousness and Psi
EEG Imaging Lab: Experimental Research of Psi Effects and Altered States of Consiousness.
Now how about linking to a case that pertains to the specific claim you made: a person that “recounted memories and details of someone else’s life verbatim without any possible way of knowing them in advance”?
No I think it’s a very low estimate. You’re welcome.
I’m not pushing anything. I linked to current, credible research that is going on into a subject that another poster expressed interest in.
How is listing other things the University of Virginia is researching supposed to be some kind of counter-argument to that simple fact? And absolutely nothing that you’ve had to say at any point in this entire thread indicates to me that you’re qualified to determine their research is woo.
That’s the name of a book. Where is one specific case that fulfills your specific claim?
By the way, you should do a little background check on your sources…but you have been told that several times before, haven’t you? Here’s a little background information about the Division of Perceptual Studies, it’s founder, and the rather loose research that lead to the book you’re pushing, Old Souls.
I said that among the observations people have made, which number in the tens of millions over time (the point you were originally arguing against) are:
Instead of conceding that if that was my criteria then you agree it is probably at least tens of millions if not more, you change the goalposts and want to see a cite about one of those particular observations, given as offhand examples of the types of things people have observed. You have dropped all discussion of the original point you were incorrectly arguing, and instead now want to focus on one minor point given as an offhand example in that original discussion.
So, I linked to a page of current research at university of Virginia that includes study of people’s observations of that one offhand example - one of the many things that would add into the tens of millions number you were originally arguing against.
Now you are changing the goalposts yet again, and want to make it a discussion about whether or not that research is conducted “loosely” or up to your standards.
I would suggest saving these arguments for a thread where someone is claiming that any particular report or study of paranormal whatever is true or has been proven. My interest in the thread is the discussion of what research has been done and what research continues.
No offense or insult intended. It was an objective statement.
And furthermore, the tiny slivers of ESP allegedly measured in Princeton would have no selective advantage at all.
Actually we can read minds against the will of others. We do it by reading faces. We can also put up thought shields by disguising our facial expressions. We can also sometimes see through those disguises…
Human intelligence shows every sign of being the result of an arms race among social creatures. (Well actually the evidence is mixed, but I’m on a roll.) Back on page one, Chronos said this:
I say that future studies of ESP should be made in the field rather than the laboratory and focus on the P (perception) while using beliefs about ES to motivate the investigation. For example, some people think there’s a staring behind the head effect: I’m guessing it’s a form of extrapolation off of something they saw out of the corner their eye. If a woman walks into a room and sees a dude’s head track her movements, it wouldn’t surprise me if she perceived his attention even when her back was turned. Nor would it surprise me if she was correct.