# The Straight Dope on the Mayan Calendar **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951 "2008-12-19T18:31:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/61 "2008-12-21T20:22:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Care to explain this statement to me? Mind you, I am not saying that either exists, but assuming they did (which is certainly possible), then why would it be impossible for either to transmit information? Well, suppose that you’ve created two particles that are linked, such one is always “true” and one is always “false”, i.e. they alternate between two distinct states, but always in instant opposition to each other, despite being light-years apart. The problem is, the very act of interacting with one of the particles (i.e. reading it) alters its state. So you create particles A and B and want to give your buddy the answer to a true/false question. Is A true and B false, or the other way around? If you check A, you’ll change it. If you send it to your buddy and he checks it, he’ll change it. If the particle interacts with any other particle along the way, it’ll change. Try to send a “true” to your buddy and you’ve no way to guarantee what result he gets. Ah, but I’ll just keep B, and as long it remains “false”, I’ll know A is true, right? Sure, but you have no way of knowing at any given moment if B is false, because in the act of checking it…etc. There are subtleties I’m missing, of course, but the gist is that using a particle to transmit information isn’t like sending a written letter. You can at least be confident that that recipient of the letter will see the same words you saw as you wrote it. If the act of him opening the envelope caused the words to change randomly, what good is the letter? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/62 "2008-12-21T21:40:52Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, suppose that you’ve created two particles that are linked, such one is always “true” and one is always “false”, i.e. they alternate between two distinct states, but always in instant opposition to each other, despite being light-years apart. The problem is, the very act of interacting with one of the particles (i.e. reading it) alters its state. So you create particles A and B and want to give your buddy the answer to a true/false question. Is A true and B false, or the other way around? If you check A, you’ll change it. If you send it to your buddy and he checks it, he’ll change it. If the particle interacts with any other particle along the way, it’ll change. Try to send a “true” to your buddy and you’ve no way to guarantee what result he gets. > > Ah, but I’ll just keep B, and as long it remains “false”, I’ll know A is true, right? Sure, but you have no way of knowing at any given moment if B is false, because in the act of checking it…etc. > > There are subtleties I’m missing, of course, but the gist is that using a particle to transmit information isn’t like sending a written letter. You can at least be confident that that recipient of the letter will see the same words you saw as you wrote it. If the act of him opening the envelope caused the words to change randomly, what good is the letter? Well that seems simple enough to get around. Just agree on a set time to check the particles. Your buddy sends the answer before that and all is well. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/63 "2008-12-21T21:53:58Z")
Something I’ve always wondered - is the sentence “no useful information can be transmitted faster than the speed of light” descriptive or prescriptive? ---
**Author:** ![BwanaBob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bwanabob/32/2985_2.png) [@BwanaBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BwanaBob)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2008, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/64 "2008-12-21T22:36:06Z")
For Pete’s sake, please read this link[http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/](http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/calendar/) specifically the section on the Mayan calendar and for those doomday idiots please note that this event has been long accounted for… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/65 "2008-12-22T04:48:27Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Well that seems simple enough to get around. Just agree on a set time to check the particles. Your buddy sends the answer before that and all is well. Well, assuming you can keep the two particles in absolute isolation the whole time. And if there is an unintended interaction with a stray gamma ray, you won’t have any way of knowing it. “I checked my particle. It says false, so I know yours says true, which is correct.” “Yes, but was it false before you checked it, or did your act of checking it make it false?” “Uhmmmm…” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/66 "2008-12-22T05:47:30Z")
To those who accept the quantum entanglement concept the act of checking made it false and made the other true at the same time. Now mind you the more I read about this the more I become less convinced that quantum entanglement as it is presently understood represents super luminal information transmission. But I’m not quite sure. But **half** seems more convinced than seems justified and about how the speculated tachyons would behave as well. I tried a GQ about tachyons and got no takers but I am very curious as to what the universe would look like from a tachyon perspective (time goes the other way, Black Holes appear as White Holes?, it takes more energy to slow a particle down …) and what would be the signatures of tachyons in our observable universe (replusive gravity? or what?) I don’t know if anyone has really worked out a good physics model based on an assumption that tachyons exist. For **half** to state with certainty that he knows how they would or would not behave seems to me to be a bit much. Also a weird thought - at a quantum level [particles can change into other particles.](http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00391.htm) > [@](#): > > Objects under the right conditions can > change into other objects without being forced to. A photon flying through > space can change into an electron and anti-electron, or vice-versa. > Quantities such as total momentum, total energy, and total electric charge > must be conserved, but many things can change. We do not know how or why it > happens. So certain particles approaching say an event horizon could change into a photon and move at the speed of light and, who knows, then change into tachyons that move faster than the speed of light and travel in the other direction through time. Hypothetically. This is what is cool about physics. The things that are (I think) not inconsistent with what we know are at least as crazy as our op! ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2008, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/67 "2008-12-22T06:01:38Z")
Like it or not? What’s not to like? And I thought it was Dec. 21, not Dec. 12. Can we get the dates straightened out, please? ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/68 "2008-12-23T05:34:44Z")
Could someone please tell me why we’re debating this at all? Let alone debating any numbers? I was going to say “I might as well say…” then come up with something ridiculous and try to make up some numbers. But I can’t beat the OP. ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/69 "2008-12-23T23:03:15Z")
What baudrunner neglects to mention is that the antimatter pellet is in fact the anti-Christ. He will collide with the Christ, completely annihilating both and destroying the world as we know it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2008, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/70 "2008-12-23T23:18:55Z")
I always thought an anti-Christ/Christ meeting would result in a total conversion of all mass AND mystic spirit stuff to energy, resulting in the destruction of the entire solar system…and a good portion of the galaxy too boot. No? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/71 "2008-12-24T00:17:23Z")
Pure nonsense. A Christ-Antichrist reaction, obviously, annihilates only liturgical mass. The energy yield varies considerably depending upon whether the initial reaction mass is Tridentine, Novus Ordo, Anglican or Lutheran; however, physicists agree that the total yield can never exceed the mass of Pope Paul VI (71.8 kg). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/72 "2008-12-24T02:32:05Z")
So, then Energy would be equal to Mass (said in Latin) times C squared, where C is the total number of Christians on the planet at any given time? -XT ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/73 "2008-12-24T18:08:53Z")
I fail to see what this “Time Cube” site has to do with all of this. As to the nature of the sun, check out [this very serious website](http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/), which supports rational opposition to the ridiculous notion that the sun is a giant gas ball, I mean, how preposterous! A large anti-matter pellet will puncture the iron mantle of the sun, causing it to partially collapse and destabalize it. It will subsequently explode, in a manner of speaking. ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/74 "2008-12-24T18:12:33Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > If Toutatis were really made of antimatter, we wouldn’t need to shoot a warhead nuclear or otherwise at it. Any ordinary matter would do the trick nicely. > > You wouldn’t by any chance have a newsletter of some sort, would you? Gorsnak, the anti-matter is inits own containment chamber, that grows as more anti-matter is being added to it. If you study Toutatis data, you’ll find that it rotates out of sync with its other half, which _is_ ordinary matter. I propose destroying only that part, as the rest may be of service to us in the future. ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/75 "2008-12-24T18:17:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > My understanding is that the Mayan calendar issue is the equivalent of Y2K. It’s not a case where the Mayans planned a calendar centuries in advance and put a big red circle around December 12, 2012. The reality was that their numbering system, like ours, only goes so high and it rolls over on that date. 12-12-2012 was their equivalent of what 12-31-9999 will be for us. If we’re still using the same calendar system eight thousand years from now, we’ll either have to add a fifth digit or start over again at 0000. Little Nemo, these people deal with time chunks of 65 million years and more. I think that a few thousand years to them is totally predictable. There is no evidence that the Mayan calendar “rolls over”. Sorry, that’s it, that’s all she wrote, let the fat lady sing. ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/76 "2008-12-24T18:25:22Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#): > > In addition to the other flaws people are bringing up (and will continue to I’m sure), I’ll just note that the sun does not have an iron mantel, or a mantel of any kind — mantels being those shelves you usually see above fireplaces. It’s a pity though, as the sun could use a few knick-knacks on its mantel to make it feel cozy. > > However, the sun doesn’t have an iron _mantle_ either, as it’s almost entirely a fluid plasma of hydrogen and helium. Very little iron there, percentage-wise, and none of it in solid form anyway. The sun has no hard surface that you could bore through, even if you were a very boring sort of person, itching to do some boring whenever you get the opportunity. Bytegeist, you are so naive. If you did less prosletyzing and more research you would know that the sun indeed _does_ have an iron mantle - much of the matter in the solar system _is_ iron. We are an iron world.[Study this site](http://www.thesurfaceofthesun.com/). Giant fluidic gas ball, my foot! Temperatures far exceeding the surface temperature of the sun have been achieved in the laboratory, with iron maintaining its solid state even at temperatures far greater than occur on the sun’s surface. Imaging evidence proves that permanent craters exist on the sun’s iron surface. The sun is actually a gian iron ball surrounded by a sea of neon plasma, inside of which violent nuclear reactions are taking place. ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/77 "2008-12-24T18:27:50Z")
> [@Vox\_Imperatoris](#): > > This is the most incomprehensible “theory” I’ve ever seen posted on these boards. And you used a different font, too. > 1/10 (I’m rating you now, see.) > > Valete, > Vox Imperatoris It’s incomprehensible to you because it’s truth, not theory. “Truth is stranger than fiction”. Sadly, the truth is a stranger to many. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/78 "2008-12-24T18:30:27Z")
> [@baudrunner](#): > > Like it or not, we will all fry when the sun goes into partial collapse and ultimately explodes in a burst of energy we call a nova. Nope. A nova is caused by the accretion of matter onto a white dwarf star. The Sun is not a white dwarf star, so it can’t go nova. The Sun can’t go supernova, either. It’s not massive enough. > [@](#): > > a giant antimatter pellet which bores its way through the iron mantel of the sun. The Sun doesn’t have an iron mantel, or mantle for that matter. If there were a lot of iron in the Sun, its spectrum would look very different from what we actually see. > [@](#): > > One half of Toutatis is currently made up of this antimatter pellet, What’s the other half made of? If it’s matter, how are the matter and antimatter kept apart so they don’t annihilate? Is there a system like the [McDLT packaging](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_N%27_Tasty#History)? > [@](#): > > Do you doubt the concept of superluminosity? Look at the centre of any super nova, like the crab nebula, for example. You’ll see the original star, still shining as it was before it exploded, because the light from that star is still travelling at normal light speed, and yet the explosion was observed in broad daylight by Chinese and Arab astronomers in 1054. Shock waves travel much faster than light. The original bow wave of that nova arrived here thousands of years ago. That’s not why we see supernova remnants. We see supernova remnants because not all supernovae blow their parent stars entirely to smithereens. The core of the star is left, and emits electromagnetic radiation. If your theory were true, we’d see a normal star when we looked for a supernova remnant, because we’d be seeing the star as it was before it blew up. We don’t. ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/79 "2008-12-24T18:30:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It must be quite frightening to believe in that. Life is frightening, dear. I’m not worried, because I can overcome any trivial adversity. I am a transmigrated spirit, and I can simply be reborn where I choose. What is fear, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![baudrunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@baudrunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/baudrunner)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951/80 "2008-12-24T18:35:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Has anyone noticed the OP’s home page (blog)? - it’s: > > [http://baudrunner.blogspot.com/](http://baudrunner.blogspot.com/) > > -He doesn’t just believe _one_ crackpot idea, as presented here, he’s gone for the whole set. I have patience with your kind, my friend. Open your mind, your heart, to the truth, and you will be satiated. Continue to pursue your ego-centric view of “reality” and you will be forever in doubt. Some find doubt the most comfortable entrenchment through the passage of one’s life. Once the truth is realized, what else is there? Eventually boredom, until some other ridiculous ism takes root and deludes the innocent with the comfort of never really knowing, just believing. Belief is the most potent force in your life. It means the difference between truly passing away and merely transitioning. Think transcendence. But remember that truth is essential to continuation. It is the ticket to eternal life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-straight-dope-on-the-mayan-calendar/477951.md?page=5)