# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/181 "2013-09-24T21:08:54Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think most religions do, its like an undercurrent of beliefs that they never make official. But its there, and as solid as their published doctrines. For example, most Christians believe that when they drink the wine in communion, that it turns into Christ blood; but they won’t write that into their doctrines. > > In another example, most Christians believe that the bible was written by them and only for them, but they cannot include that in their doctrines because they hold no copy rights on the bible. Neither of these “facts” are correct. Perhaps you should consult another website? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/182 "2013-09-24T21:10:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your link to [tentmaker.org](http://tentmaker.org) doesn’t mention anything about secret Baptists beliefs, and the part you want us to reference in particular talks, in part, about the myth of _Jesus_ talking more about Hell than about Heaven. Look in the section called " Scholars Corner", the article called Honest Answers and questions about hell, pg.2. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/183 "2013-09-24T21:12:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Neither of these “facts” are correct. Perhaps you should consult another website? They are correct, I know for a fact that Christians believe they wrote the bible and its for them. Well they did not write the bible and its for everyone; I stand by that as truth. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/184 "2013-09-24T21:13:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Look in the section called " Scholars Corner", the article called Honest Answers and questions about hell, pg.2. hmmmm - > **[Honest Questions and Answers about Hell](https://www.tentmaker.org/ifhellisreal.htm)** > > Is Hell Real? Not according to the original Hebrew and Greek languages of the Bible. is this the article you are reffering to? - it calls it a ‘myth’, but does not back up with any resources or cites as to how they came up with it. - and you don’t even get the title of it correct - > [@](#): > > **Popular myth: Jesus spoke of Hell more than He did of Heaven.** So - they are referring to “Jesus” speaking of it, not the ‘entire bible’ and the don’t source any reference for the myth - nor does the article talk about how many references to heaven or hell. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/185 "2013-09-24T21:15:54Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > They are correct, I know for a fact that Christians believe they wrote the bible and its for them. Well they did not write the bible and its for everyone; I stand by that as truth. You have yet to tell us what faith you follow, if not Christianity. If you are neither atheist nor Christian, what are you? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/186 "2013-09-24T21:16:30Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > They are correct, I know for a fact that Christians believe they wrote the bible and its for them. Well they did not write the bible and its for everyone; I stand by that as truth. I know of no christian that believes ‘they’ wrote the bible - You are confusing ‘fact’ with your ‘belief’. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/187 "2013-09-24T21:18:05Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t understand that comment from you; the man asked why I did not report him insulting me, and I responded I can handle him myself, prefering not to take it to a moderator level; explain to me what was wrong with that? Maybe this wasn’t your intent, but it sounded like a taunt. If not, continue (but bring some cites). ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/188 "2013-09-24T21:18:34Z")
> [@simster](#): > > hmmmm - > > [Honest Questions and Answers about Hell](http://www.tentmaker.org/ifhellisreal.htm) > > is this the article you are reffering to? - it calls it a ‘myth’, but does not back up with any resources or cites as to how they came up with it. - and you don’t even get the title of it correct - > > So - they are referring to “Jesus” speaking of it, not the ‘entire bible’ and the don’t source any reference for the myth - nor does the article talk about how many references to heaven or hell. You can reference Bible-truths,com/index.php?topic=5257.0 and see more on it; if that link does not work, just search the site; its a good site. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/189 "2013-09-24T21:19:47Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > You have to be in their congregations and hear their sermons to know this fact. I attended a Baptist church regularly throughout my youth. Hell was _rarely_ mentioned. The sermons were all about loving your neighbors, biblical readings, the pathway to Heaven being through Jesus, etc. That last one was always a big topic, both in and out of the Church. We talked a lot about how to get into Heaven, but almost never about what would happen if you didn’t. In fact, one of the more progressive Baptist churches I attended (the one I was married in) was of the general opinion that hell was merely the absence of the presence of God. In other words, being forced to walk in the ‘wilderness’ for eternity, separated from your loved ones and the loving light of God’s presence. But Hell itself was never a big topic. The church didn’t preach fear - it preached love, kindness, and bringing the word of God to others so they might be saved and bask in his glory for eternity. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/190 "2013-09-24T21:20:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You have yet to tell us what faith you follow, if not Christianity. If you are neither atheist nor Christian, what are you? I don’t " Have" to tell you I follow any body when I follow nobody. I told you I walk alone. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/191 "2013-09-24T21:20:34Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I don’t view the Lake of Fire as the Christian hell, and in my view, any scripture in the bible that places humans into the lake of fire forever as a punishment, is a fraud and was put there during translations. And I don’t explain away things, I explain my views and beliefs. The Lake of Fire exist, but it was not created for humans, which is written in scriptures just as plain as day. The same passages which talk about a lake of fire clearly also put at least some humans in it: > [@](#): > > [Revelation 20:10-20](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2020:10-20&version=NIV): And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. > > Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. > [@](#): > > [Revelation 21:6-8](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2021:6-8&version=NIV): He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” So, according to Revelation, there is a "lake of fire " (or “lake of burning sulfur”), which is a place of prolonged if not eternal torment for the “devil”, the “beast”, and the “false prophet”, and into which assorted unbelievers and sinners are also cast. You may argue that for the purely human sinners the lake of fire merely constitutes some sort of annihilation–the “second death”–but I don’t see how you can say that “it was not created for humans”. According to Revelation, some humans clearly wind up in the lake of fire, whatever exactly that means. There’s also the earlier passage [Revelation 14:9-12](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation%2014:9-12&version=NIV): > [@](#): > > A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus. So, while there is no mention in that passage of a “lake”, there is mention of people (those who worship the “beast”) being “tormented with burning sulfur” (interestingly enough, “in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb” and _not_ a separation from God–I suppose this is a chief support for the [Eastern Orthodox view of hell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell#Eastern_Orthodox_concepts_of_hell) ), the “smoke” of this torment will rise for “ever and ever” (or perhaps “ages and ages”, and maybe that just means the _smoke_ keeps rising). And there are echoes in the language regarding what will happen to the “devil”, the “beast”, and the “false prophet” in the lake of fire and what will happen to those who worship the “beast” (the “devil”, the “beast”, and the “false prophet” will be “tormented day and night for ever and ever” in a “lake of burning sulfur” and those who worship the beast will be “tormented with burning sulfur”, will have “no rest day or night”, and “the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever”). Whatever _John_ may have been smoking, I don’t think later Christians who interpreted this stuff to be referring to some kind of painful, fiery, and prolonged if not eternal punishment for the wicked in the afterlife were completely making stuff up that was totally absent from the various texts of the Bible. (Especially not if you throw [Luke 16:19-31](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:19-31&version=NIV) into the mix.) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/192 "2013-09-24T21:21:49Z")
Clearly, your intellect is dizzying. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/193 "2013-09-24T21:21:59Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I attended a Baptist church regularly throughout my youth. Hell was _rarely_ mentioned. The sermons were all about loving your neighbors, biblical readings, the pathway to Heaven being through Jesus, etc. That last one was always a big topic, both in and out of the Church. We talked a lot about how to get into Heaven, but almost never about what would happen if you didn’t. > > In fact, one of the more progressive Baptist churches I attended (the one I was married in) was of the general opinion that hell was merely the absence of the presence of God. In other words, being forced to walk in the ‘wilderness’ for eternity, separated from your loved ones and the loving light of God’s presence. > > But Hell itself was never a big topic. The church didn’t preach fear - it preached love, kindness, and bringing the word of God to others so they might be saved and bask in his glory for eternity. Sounds good, but In my view that church was rare. But perhaps that is growing and changing; I certainly hope so. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/194 "2013-09-24T21:22:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > You can reference Bible-truths,com/index.php?topic=5257.0 and see more on it; if that link does not work, just search the site; its a good site. It may be a ‘good’ site - but its just another forum - how about a scholarly cite that will back up your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/195 "2013-09-24T21:24:11Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Clearly, your intellect is dizzying. So whats that supposed to mean? An Administrator just asked me not to make such comments, now a Moderator makes one to me. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/196 "2013-09-24T21:24:46Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Sounds good, but In my view that church was rare. But perhaps that is growing and changing; I certainly hope so. How many different Baptist churches have you attended, to make such a claim? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/197 "2013-09-24T21:25:36Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > So whats that supposed to mean? An Administrator just asked me not to make such comments, now a Moderator makes one to me. > > Go figure. He didn’t make it as a moderator - While he may be a moderator - he is also a member. If you don’t like a post or you feel you were wronged - REPORT IT. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/198 "2013-09-24T21:27:31Z")
**simster** , please stop junior moderating. It just creates another distraction, so it doesn’t help. > [@Mickiel](#): > > So whats that supposed to mean? An Administrator just asked me not to make such comments, now a Moderator makes one to me. > > Go figure. How do you know he was talking to you? His post came after **MEBuckner** ’s and I don’t see any reference to anything you said. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/199 "2013-09-24T21:28:20Z")
> [@simster](#): > > He didn’t make it as a moderator - While he may be a moderator - he is also a member. > > If you don’t like a post or you feel you were wronged - REPORT IT. No! I will not. I can handle that myself. And allow me to refer you to this " Scholarly work", " Hell under Fire", by Christopher W. Warren, he gets into what we are discussing for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/200 "2013-09-24T21:29:27Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **simster** , please stop junior moderating. It just creates another distraction, so it doesn’t help. > > How do you know he was talking to you? His post came after **MEBuckner** ’s and I don’t see any reference to anything you said. Fair enough, if I am wrong accept my apoligy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=11)