# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/261 "2013-09-25T04:05:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > And I most certainly know what the Anthropic principle is, and it definitely proves that God is real. If I walk down a street and find a dime on the ground, I may think nothing of it. If I further walk and find 3 dimes on the ground, I may now suspect someone dropped them by mistake. Yet if I go further and find 100 dimes on the ground, yet each individually standing on their edges and perfectly balanced, then …then you better not mess with them, or [Christo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christo_and_Jeanne-Claude) will be all over your ass. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/262 "2013-09-25T04:07:33Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If you think Jesus was the son of God you are Christian - though perhaps not any particular branch. I don’t and I’m not. Hell, I _DO_ and I’m not\*. \*'Cos I believe that so is everyone else. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/263 "2013-09-25T04:07:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Say what? How did you come to attend _hundreds_ of different Baptist churches? I once was a Baptist and on each Sunday morn I’d be in church praying just as sure as you’re born. We’d sing there like angels in sweet harmony But sin and salvation are no longer for me. Cause now I’m a Buddhist I chant my mantra each day But I miss that good singing in the old Gospel way. We sing of old Buddha and the wonders of Zen. We’ll meet in Nirvana, yes we’ll be there then. Now my old friends don’t like me since I shaved my head and they all talk about me as if I were dead. My good old Zen buddies they think I’m ok, But I can’t get them singing more than one note a day. We sit here cross legged eating brown rice and cheese and we chant out our mantra in four square harmony. We don’t sing of salvation or a heavenly home. It’s Zen gospel singing, just Om Om, sweet Om. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/264 "2013-09-25T04:09:35Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I disagree with that, but that’s fine, you got 32 more on that list, lets have their evaluation. Do not tempt Him, shallow one! Is not the Miracle of the Juniper Bushes enough?! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/265 "2013-09-25T04:17:22Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > It is my destiny to be kicked out of places. Just great-Another professional martyr here to “suffer” as loudly as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/266 "2013-09-25T05:04:17Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think your debate is unattentive, I have not given a list of books in this thread, you don’t know what your talking about. Show me where I gave a list of books; and when you fail in doing that, ask yourself how someone who is not even paying attention to a debate, can call anothers style of debate crummy. [This Post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16694061&postcount=111) Post 111 in this thread. You gave a list of writers, and said that they confirmed the historical Jesus. However, many of those writers only quoted other writers, and did not provide primary, original confirmation of the historical Jesus. I asked you to pare the list down to those that provided original evidence. You, instead, gave a different list. You are correct, in that you didn’t give a list of books, but a list of writers. The difference isn’t as profound as you are making it out to be. That’s called disingenuity, and is not a respectable debate technique. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/267 "2013-09-25T05:07:21Z")
“Disingenuity?” I thought the preferred noun form was “disingenuousness.” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/268 "2013-09-25T05:36:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [This Post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16694061&postcount=111) Post 111 in this thread. You gave a list of writers, and said that they confirmed the historical Jesus. However, many of those writers only quoted other writers, and did not provide primary, original confirmation of the historical Jesus. > > I asked you to pare the list down to those that provided original evidence. You, instead, gave a different list. > > You are correct, in that you didn’t give a list of books, but a list of writers. The difference isn’t as profound as you are making it out to be. That’s called disingenuity, and is not a respectable debate technique. Well, to be fair - in his first list of writers he included ‘The Talumud’ and ‘The Toledot Yeshu’ - which are books ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/269 "2013-09-25T05:39:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > “Disingenuity?” > > I thought the preferred noun form was “disingenuousness.” disingenuity - you know - when you go to buy a car, you pop the hood and point and ask “disengenuity?” ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/270 "2013-09-25T09:22:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just great-Another professional martyr here to “suffer” as loudly as possible. I am only professional at tree climbing, nothingelse; but I like what I believe and I do my suffering alone, and need no audiance for that. And I need no good report from you to maintain my conscious motivation, I expect to be rediculed and rejected with this kind of information, especially from certain people who claim not to be interested in God, but still are in a closet of interest,. but just need to maintain an image of not being interested and not coming out of the closet. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/271 "2013-09-25T09:48:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [This Post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16694061&postcount=111) Post 111 in this thread. You gave a list of writers, and said that they confirmed the historical Jesus. However, many of those writers only quoted other writers, and did not provide primary, original confirmation of the historical Jesus. > > I asked you to pare the list down to those that provided original evidence. You, instead, gave a different list. > > You are correct, in that you didn’t give a list of books, but a list of writers. The difference isn’t as profound as you are making it out to be. That’s called disingenuity, and is not a respectable debate technique. I will not " Pare down" the list, you need to give your list of the writers that only quoted other writers, and lets see if its " Many" like you claim it to be; and we will see whose list is respectful debate. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/272 "2013-09-25T11:48:48Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > There is no doubt to those informed that the bible is a valid historical document, it has far too much confirmed archaeology on its side. > > We have found the tomb of Darius-I the Great , mentioned in Ezra 6:1-12. > > The City of Ramesses , Gen. 47:11,27 has been found. > > The Nuzi tablets has been found > > The Sumerian Kings list was unearthed. > > The tomb of Cyrus the Great, Isaiah 45 > > The tomb of the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, in the Cave of Machpelah. > > We have the bone box of the High Priest Caiaphas who slapped Christ in the face > > We have the bone box of Simon the Cyrenian who helped carry Jesus cross. > > We have the Mari Tablets > > We have the actual house of Jesus friends Mary and Martha > > We have the Apostle Peters house > > We have found the Via Dolorosa > > History was recorded and confirmed by the bible in these unique discoveries; > > The campaign of Israel by Pharaoh Shishak, ( 1 Kings 14:25-26), as found recorded on the walls of the Temple of Amun in Thebes, Egypt. > > The revolt of Moab against Israel, ( 2 Kings 1:1, 3:4-27), Recorded on the Mesha Inscription. > > The fall of Samaria, ( 2 Kings 17:3-6, 24, 18:9-11), to Sargon II, King of Assyria, as found recorded on his palace walls. > > The campaign of the Assyrian King Sennacherib against Judah, ( 2 Kings 18:13-16), as found recorded on the Taylor Prism. > > No myths, just plain historical facts. Did you forget the tombs of Ramses the 2d and he and all his children buried there? So The Scripture that stated that all the Pharoah’s army and that the Pharoah drowned could not have been true… ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/273 "2013-09-25T12:01:02Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Inspite of your apparent sarcasm, there was a scientist who believed in God and Jesus who used his study of plants to strengthen his belief, his name was John Ray. He was an incredible " Naturalist" with a serious belief in God and his work. His work in Botany, Zoology and Natural Theology was profound. He wrote a stunning piece called " The Wisdom of God manifested in the works of Creation." > > I don’t mind discussion, but I hold no interest in sarcasm and inane silly jokes that are meant to mock a discussion. So John Ray believed something is not proof of anything except that John Ray was a believer. What proof did he show. And where was God before he was in existence? A being needs a place to exist before he /she can exist!! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/274 "2013-09-25T12:10:01Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > You have to be in their congregations and hear their sermons to know this fact. You are aware aren’t you that that everything ever written was ever written is the work and words of another human. So it is belief in the humans who wrote or taught it, not any god! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/275 "2013-09-25T12:19:46Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No, they don’t. They believe that the Torah was for Jews only (the chosen people), and that Jesus came to Earth to offer the possibility of salvation to _everyone else_. One of the most common scripture passages you will hear in any Baptist church is John 3:16: > > \*For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. \* > > It continues: > > _For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him._ > > You may notice two things about those passages: First they’re all inclusive. They state that Jesus came for _everyone_, and that the whole world can be saved through him. > > Second, notice that there’s no mention of Hell. The opposite of being saved is simply to perish. It could have said, “Whoever believes in Him shall not burn in the fires of damnation, but have everlasting life.” Or some such. But it doesn’t. > > If anything, this sentiment is stronger in Baptists than in other sects of Christianity, because its origin is after all from John… the Baptist. Matthew 15 verse 24,Jesus is quoted a s saying; I came only for the lost sheep of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/276 "2013-09-25T12:21:45Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Hundreds for the first 37 years of my life. I used to be a Christian for that long; I KNOW what I am talking about. > > It may not be going over well here, but I know it to be true. What you know can be proven, what you believe cannot with out the evidence people are asking of you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/277 "2013-09-25T12:32:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I will not " Pare down" the list, you need to give your list of the writers that only quoted other writers, and lets see if its " Many" like you claim it to be; and we will see whose list is respectful debate. Are there parts of the Tentmaker website you disagree with and if so, what? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/278 "2013-09-25T12:32:41Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > The list I gave was to show that I am not Christian, not to prove that I am an expert on Christianity; I can be wrong about things, but I am not wrong about what I am and am not. > > In further example; > > Christians believe that you have to " Accept Christ" to be saved, I do not. > They believe in and celebrate Christmas, I do not > They celebrate Easter, I do not > They celebrate Valentines day, I do not > They think they are Gods anointed , I do not. I don’t think anyone on the board has a quarrel with your beliefs, but since you have no proof. and use the Bible as your guide you apparently believe in the Bible. That is your right but it isn’t proof nor changing any minds. Did you ever read the 81st or 82d psalm (depending on what version you read? also a follow up in John 10? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/279 "2013-09-25T13:01:02Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I don’t think anyone on the board has a quarrel with your beliefs, but since you have no proof. and use the Bible as your guide you apparently believe in the Bible. That is your right but it isn’t proof nor changing any minds. Did you ever read the 81st or 82d psalm (depending on what version you read? also a follow up in John 10? I hold no interest in changing anyones mind, and I have listed plenty of proof, your mind is just conditioned not to see it as proof. In fact your mind is conditioned not to see it. Consciousness is proof of God, and stunning proof of him. Consciousness cannot derive from an unknown big bang explosion in space, such explosions destroy things, not create living things. Consciousness can only come from consciousness, it cannot arrive from miracle self creating matter. Stellar evidence of God. Do I hold a need to bang that evidence into someone’s head, absolutely not, people are free to believe whatever they wish, I do not believe in " Evangelism", or trying to convince anyone of God’s existence. Consciousness can only be birthed by consciousness, and it cannot be birthed by imaginary matter and chemicals that supposedly came from some explosion in nothing space. Life came from life, it did not crawl out from under a self created rock that somehow eventually created an animal which eventually walked upright and through some miracle luck, developed a thinking brain. We are not continuous with the Idiot hierarchy of speechless apes! ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/280 "2013-09-25T13:11:12Z")
The strange concept of eternal hell suffering has struck a nerve in the consciousness of humanity. Look how it has even seeped into the verbal Idioms in our language; people say all the time , things like; " Go to hell you creep" " This house is going to hell" " Go to hell in a handbasket" “See you in hell” " You go to hell, I’ll go to Texas" " What the hell is wrong with you" Its gotten into the movie industry, a major holiday, Holloween, embraces part of the concept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=15)