# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/281 "2013-09-25T13:14:06Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I will not " Pare down" the list, you need to give your list of the writers that only quoted other writers, and lets see if its " Many" like you claim it to be; and we will see whose list is respectful debate. All of the writers on your list are well after Jesus purported physical time on the earth - they _all_ quote from other sources and none of them have first hand information nor were any of them eyewitnesses to the events that they ‘believe’. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/282 "2013-09-25T13:14:57Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I hold no interest in changing anyones mind, and I have listed plenty of proof, your mind is just conditioned not to see it as proof. In fact your mind is conditioned not to see it. Consciousness is proof of God, and stunning proof of him. Consciousness cannot derive from an unknown big bang explosion in space, such explosions destroy things, not create living things. Consciousness can only come from consciousness, it cannot arrive from miracle self creating matter. Stellar evidence of God. Do I hold a need to bang that evidence into someone’s head, absolutely not, people are free to believe whatever they wish, I do not believe in " Evangelism", or trying to convince anyone of God’s existence. > > Consciousness can only be birthed by consciousness, and it cannot be birthed by imaginary matter and chemicals that supposedly came from some explosion in nothing space. Life came from life, it did not crawl out from under a self created rock that somehow eventually created an animal which eventually walked upright and through some miracle luck, developed a thinking brain. We are not continuous with the Idiot hierarchy of speechless apes! Is there anything in this world _isn’t_ proof of the god you believe in? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/283 "2013-09-25T13:23:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > All of the writers on your list are well after Jesus purported physical time on the earth - they _all_ quote from other sources and none of them have first hand information nor were any of them eyewitnesses to the events that they ‘believe’. I disagree with that; Ignatius , the 3rd bishop of Antioch, was a personal student of the Apostle John. Polycarp lived not long after Christ, he was in fact the first recorded martyrdom in post new testament history. The Romans killed him he was the Bishop of Smyrna. Both were only 69 years after Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/284 "2013-09-25T13:24:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there anything in this world _isn’t_ proof of the god you believe in? Yes, your sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/285 "2013-09-25T13:29:14Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I disagree with that; Ignatius , the 3rd bishop of Antioch, was a personal student of the Apostle John. > > Polycarp lived not long after Christ, he was in fact the first recorded martyrdom in post new testament history. The Romans killed him he was the Bishop of Smyrna. > > **Both were only 69 years after Christ**. key word being AFTER - they had no personal first hand knowledge - Ignatiius may have been a student of John - but that still means he was quoting John - not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/286 "2013-09-25T13:34:00Z")
> [@simster](#): > > key word being AFTER - they had no personal first hand knowledge - Ignatiius may have been a student of John - but that still means he was quoting John - not Jesus. You said " All" the writers I listed were " Well after Jesus", I disagreed with that, because it simply is not true. Phlegon of Marathon lived only 80 years after Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/287 "2013-09-25T13:36:14Z")
**Mickiel** , there are a ton of statements in that post that should be cited. People aren’t going to agree they’re true just because you say they’re true. > [@Mickiel](#): > > Consciousness cannot derive from an unknown big bang explosion in space, such explosions destroy things, not create living things. The Big Bang wasn’t an explosion. > [@](#): > > Consciousness can only come from consciousness, it cannot arrive from miracle self creating matter. Cite please? > [@](#): > > people are free to believe whatever they wish We know that. The question here is whether your argument stands up to any kind of logical analysis. > [@](#): > > Consciousness can only be birthed by consciousness, and it cannot be birthed by imaginary matter and chemicals that supposedly came from some explosion in nothing space. Again, cite? > [@](#): > > Life came from life, it did not crawl out from under a self created rock that somehow eventually created an animal which eventually walked upright and through some miracle luck, developed a thinking brain. We are not continuous with the Idiot hierarchy of speechless apes! Maybe consider reading about evolution before you try (and fail) to summarize it. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/288 "2013-09-25T13:36:32Z")
> [@simster](#): > > key word being AFTER - they had no personal first hand knowledge - Ignatiius may have been a student of John - but that still means he was quoting John - not Jesus. Matthew, Mark , Luke and John had first hand knowledge. Those writers walked with him. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/289 "2013-09-25T13:37:37Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > You said " All" the writers I listed were " Well after Jesus", I disagreed with that, because it simply is not true. Phlegon of Marathon lived only 80 years after Christ. 1 day is ‘well after’ as far as first hand knowledge is concerned. - But, since you disagree with the ‘well after’ qualifier - we’ll just say that ’ ALL of the writers on your list were AFTER the events and NONE had first hand knowledge or personally witnessed any of the events for which they write. That help? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/290 "2013-09-25T13:40:37Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Matthew, Mark , Luke and John had first hand knowledge. Those writers walked with him. None of the Gospels date back to having been written by the first hand apostles - - secondly, I thought we were looking for extra=biblical resources to ‘prove’ the bible - using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/291 "2013-09-25T13:42:10Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > **Mickiel** , there are a ton of statements in that post that should be cited. People aren’t going to agree they’re true just because you say they’re true. > > The Big Bang wasn’t an explosion. > > Cite please? > > We know that. The question here is whether your argument stands up to any kind of logical analysis. > > Again, cite? > > Maybe consider reading about evolution before you try (and fail) to summarize it. Cite, I’ll give you the best cite on Consciousness that I know of in life, " The Julian Jaynes Society." I’ll go better than that, get Dr. Jaynes book, " The Origin of Consciousness in the breakdown of the Bicameral mind." The best work on consciousness I ever read. I don’t agree with everything Jaynes believes. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/292 "2013-09-25T13:48:01Z")
> [@simster](#): > > None of the Gospels date back to having been written by the first hand apostles - - secondly, I thought we were looking for extra=biblical resources to ‘prove’ the bible - using the Bible to prove the Bible is circular. You don’t know what your talking about, Matthew wrote Matthew only 50 years after Christ, Mark wrote Mark 68 years after Christ, Luke wrote Luke 60 years after Christ and John wrote John only about 85-90 years after Christ. The Lockman foundation and the New Scofield study material provide these dates. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/293 "2013-09-25T13:51:11Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Matthew, Mark , Luke and John had first hand knowledge. Those writers walked with him. Lets talk about John - [QUOTE=[Gospel of John - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John)] The Gospel According to John (Greek τὸ κατὰ Ἰωάννην εὐαγγέλιον), commonly referred to as the Gospel of John or simply John,\*\* is an anonymous account of the public ministry of Jesus. \*\*It begins with the witness and affirmation of John the Baptist and concludes with the death, burial, resurrection, and post-resurrection appearances of Jesus. This account is fourth of the canonical gospels, after the synoptics (Matthew, Mark and Luke), and is often referred to in New Testament scholarship as the Fourth Gospel. **Chapter 21 states that the book derives from the testimony of the 'disciple whom Jesus loved.** ’ Along with Peter, the unnamed disciple is especially close to Jesus, and early church tradition identified him as John the Apostle, one of Jesus’ Twelve Apostles. The gospel is closely related in style and content to the three surviving Epistles of John such that commentators treat the four books,[1] along with the Book of Revelation, as a single body of Johannine literature. **According to most modern scholars, however, John was not the author of any of these books.[2]** [/QUOTE] lets talk about Mathew - [QUOTE=[Gospel of Matthew - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew)] he Gospel of Matthew was composed between 70 and 110,\*\* with most scholars preferring the period 80-90.[2] The anonymous author was probably a highly educated Jew, \*\*intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, and the disciple Matthew was probably honored within his circle as the source of much of the tradition.[3] **He drew on three main sources to compose his gospel** : the Gospel of Mark; the hypothetical collection of sayings known as the Q source; and material unique to his own community,[4] all of which probably derived ultimately from earlier oral gospel traditions.[5] [/QUOTE] Shall I continue? Or is this enough to show who knows what ther’re talking about and who does’nt ? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/294 "2013-09-25T13:57:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Lets talk about John - > ? Lets talk about him, he signed off as the writer of his own book, explain that to me if he did not write it. John 21:24 " This is the disciple who bears WITNESS of these things, AND WROTE these things, and we KNOW this WITNESS is true." The man is literally signing his own book here, why would some other writer say that? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/295 "2013-09-25T14:02:44Z")
> [@simster](#): > > lets talk about Mathew - > > Shall I continue? Or is this enough to show who knows what ther’re talking about and who does’nt ? Lets talk about Matthew, in fact all the books of the NT, it was obvious tradition that the writer of the letter named it after himself, except Paul. Matthew wrote Matthew Mark wrote Mark Luke wrote Luke John wrote John Peter wrote 1st and 2nd Peter James wrote James Jude wrote Jude ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/296 "2013-09-25T14:06:49Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Matthew, Mark , Luke and John had first hand knowledge. Those writers walked with him. Since we haven’t the slightest idea who those writers were, there’s no way we can say they “walked with Jesus,” even if the time frame makes that possible. There’s no evidence that the book of Luke was written by a disciple named Luke, or Mark by Mark, etc. And we have no original copies of any of them. What got changed since they were first written? We can only speculate. It’s unlikely that the stories were dumbed down, more likely they were pumped up by pious promulgators. Besides, it is well known by biblical scholars that these books drew heavily upon each other. They are not independent sources and cannot be used to corroborate stories. If you haven’t yet read the excellent [Staff Report](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1985/who-wrote-the-bible-part-1) on who wrote the bible, it is high time you do so. In Part 4, it says: > [@](#): > > As with the Old Testament, we just don’t know who wrote most of the New Testament. Tradition has assigned the Gospels and most of the Epistles to certain authors, all of whom were important figures in Jesus’ life or the early days of the faith. **It was important for the early church to believe the authors wrote the works attributed to them, since their eminence lent the writings authority.** But since we don’t have the original signatures, none can be verified except through textual clues. (bolding mine) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/297 "2013-09-25T14:07:41Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Matthew, Mark , Luke and John had first hand knowledge. Those writers walked with him. No, they didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/298 "2013-09-25T14:13:28Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Cite, I’ll give you the best cite on Consciousness that I know of in life, " The Julian Jaynes Society." I’ll go better than that, get Dr. Jaynes book, " The Origin of Consciousness in the breakdown of the Bicameral mind." The best work on consciousness I ever read. I don’t agree with everything Jaynes believes. Would you please attempt to be specific? I’m not reading an entire book - nevermind that you just made reading it pointless by saying you agree with some (unnamed) parts and don’t agree with others.Tell me how you know consciousness can only arise from consciousness. And you seem to be ignoring this, but in your post you get the Big Bang and evolution 100% wrong. You could not be any more wrong than “an explosion in space” and “a rock creating an animal.” ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/299 "2013-09-25T14:17:53Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Since we haven’t the slightest idea who those writers were, there’s no way we can say they “walked with Jesus,” even if the time frame makes that possible. There’s no evidence that the book of Luke was written by a disciple named Luke, or Mark by Mark, etc. And we have no original copies of any of them. > > What got changed since they were first written? We can only speculate. It’s unlikely that the stories were dumbed down, more likely they were pumped up by pious promulgators. > > Besides, it is well known by biblical scholars that these books drew heavily upon each other. They are not independent sources and cannot be used to corroborate stories. I totally disagree with that. Matthew, also called Levi, was the writer of the first gospel. His name appears seventh or eighth in the NT list of Apostles, Matt. 10:3, we know he was a Jew who collected taxes for the Roman government. We know Mark was a native of Jerusalem, his mothers name was Mary, Acts 12:12. His uncle was Barnabas, Acts 13:13. Mark walked with Paul, Col. 4:10. We know Luke was a Physician, Col. 4:14, he walked with Paul too. He alone tells of Christ boyhood. John, the son of Zebedee, it was to John that Jesus commended his mother to while dying on the cross. John walked with Peter. I personally think he was a deep writer and man. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/300 "2013-09-25T14:25:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Would you please attempt to be specific? I’m not reading an entire book - nevermind that you just made reading it pointless by saying you agree with some (unnamed) parts and don’t agree with others.Tell me how you know consciousness can only arise from consciousness. > > " I read the entire book, but I gave it away as a gift. Anyhow, I believe life can only come from life, I do not believe life can be birthed by componants that are not alive. Which is why I say life could not have derived from magic matter and miracle chemicals that evolved from an explosion, or slowly evolved from absolute nothing over the years. Consciousness IS life, its alive! Its a Spirit in man, and I do not believe it has any location within the body, its just there. The ability to think did not come from unthinking matter. Nothing in matter could increase in complexity to finally achieve consciousness. If so, you explain how consciousness evolved from nothing. That it came from a conscious God is the best explination I have ever considered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=16)