# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/321 "2013-09-25T16:24:09Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Yes, it is. You have failed to provide a cite to back up your claim. I provided the book, the list of staff who wrote the book and their credentials. Told you the name of the book; now, explain to me since when have publishers of bibles and concordances started creating websites for their work? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/322 "2013-09-25T16:26:29Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I provided the book, the list of staff who wrote the book and their credentials. Told you the name of the book; now, explain to me since when have publishers of bibles and concordances started creating websites for their work? maybe you havent seen my post (before this) or you are unfamiliar with this thing called ‘Google’. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/323 "2013-09-25T16:31:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > maybe you havent seen my post (before this) or you are unfamiliar with this thing called ‘Google’. I have seen your ability to be sarcastic and insult people on the sly. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/324 "2013-09-25T16:33:22Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I have seen your ability to be sarcastic and insult people on the sly. sarcastic, maybe - insulting? no - you hvae made several comments in this thread that speak to you ‘getting used to things’ and ‘not knowing how to post a cite’ - its not a stretch to think you might be unfamiliar with ‘google’ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/325 "2013-09-25T16:37:08Z")
> [@simster](#): > > sarcastic, maybe - insulting? no - you hvae made several comments in this thread that speak to you ‘getting used to things’ and ‘not knowing how to post a cite’ - its not a stretch to think you might be unfamiliar with ‘google’ as well. You misunderstand me, I am a senior, and I have a " Wow" computer, it won’t copy and paste. I meant I wish I knew how to do it on this limited type of computer. I cannot post a cite, I have to write out the address. And I quess your just not able to comprehend that insinuating that someone does not know how to goggle, is an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/326 "2013-09-25T16:45:42Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > You misunderstand me, I am a senior, and I have a " Wow" computer, it won’t copy and paste. I meant I wish I knew how to do it on this limited type of computer. I cannot post a cite, I have to write out the address. And I quess your just not able to comprehend that insinuating that someone does not know how to goggle, is an insult. Something’s just not adding up here. You have previously stated that have attended hundreds of Baptist churches, spoken at more than a few of them, and now you say that you are only a senior with a WOW computer\* that can’t cut-and-paste\*? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/327 "2013-09-25T16:46:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Something’s just not adding up here. You have previously stated that have attended hundreds of Baptist churches, spoken at more than a few of them, and now you say that you are only a senior with a WOW computer\* that can’t cut-and-paste\*? Thats right. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/328 "2013-09-25T16:49:22Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Thats right. What Baptist program sends children to hundreds of different churches to lecture others? edited to add: And what WOW computer exists that cannot cut-and-paste? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/329 "2013-09-25T16:52:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What Baptist program sends children to hundreds of different churches to lecture others? > edited to add: And what WOW computer exists that cannot cut-and-paste? I ‘think’ he means ‘senior’ as in \> 65 , not as in ‘high school’ or ‘college’. I still don’t know what a WOW computer is - ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/330 "2013-09-25T16:53:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What Baptist program sends children to hundreds of different churches to lecture others? I don’t know of one. I was a lone ranger in my teaching, speaking and writing. If I had stayed a Christian, I may have gotten some where in the world of Christianity, but I could no longer believe as they do and I had to leave. I stopped speaking, teaching and writing. And that was over 17 years ago. Its strange, but to this day, certain Christian websites still publish some of my work. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/331 "2013-09-25T16:54:53Z")
> [@simster](#): > > I ‘think’ he means ‘senior’ as in \> 65 , not as in ‘high school’ or ‘college’. > > I still don’t know what a WOW computer is - I am only 58, and a Wow computer is a senior citizen computer, very cheap and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/332 "2013-09-25T16:58:52Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am only 58, and a Wow computer is a senior citizen computer, very cheap and simple. 1. 58 isn’t “senior”-it is barely middle-aged. 2. Cut-and-paste is a basic function, and I’ve never heard of one that can’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/333 "2013-09-25T17:01:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. 58 isn’t “senior”-it is barely middle-aged. > 2. Cut-and-paste is a basic function, and I’ve never heard of one that can’t do it. This one can’t. It won’t download anything either, you can’t add programs to it. So now do you need a website to prove this computer exist? But anyhow, wanting evidence for everything is not a bad thing, but here its above average, I mean every thing gets questioned here. Good Grief! But thats cool! ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/334 "2013-09-25T17:02:23Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Not the modern scholars that I know of, only those you pick and choose. Heres a list of the modern scholars that agree with everything I have posted about the writers of the gospels; > > Frank E. Gaebelein- Headmaster Emeritus - The Stony Brook School > > William Culbertson-- President Moody Bible Institute > > Charles L. Feinberg---- Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary > > Allan A. Mac Rae ---- President Biblical Theological Seminary > > Clarence E. Mason Jr. — Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible > > Alva J. MC Clain ---- President Emeritus Grace Theological Seminary > > Wilbur M. Smith — Editor, Pelouber’s Select Notes > > John F. Walvoord – President Dallas Theological Seminary Unless you can provide specific works, and direct quotes from them agreeing with you (that Jesus walked with any biblical writers and who they were), I am certainly not going to wade through voluminous pious religious literature trying to find evidence that you think is there. Your claims are refuted by some prestigious biblical scholars here at SDMB and those that wrote the Staff Report, which I have directly quoted. Until you can do that, I call bullshit, and no wishful list of names changes that one bit. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/335 "2013-09-25T17:10:39Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am only 58, and a Wow computer is a senior citizen computer, very cheap and simple. According to [this](http://www.mywowcomputer.com/faqs.html), a WOW > [@](#): > > Almost everything a standard computer can do on the Internet also can be done with your WOW! Computer. > [@](#): > > The WOW! Computer has an integrated word processor that lets you write, edit, save and print your own text documents. It also includes software for spreadsheets and slide presentations. Maybe you need to look at your documentation, that is, RTFM. A $1K computer that can’t copy & paste isn’t worth $10. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/336 "2013-09-25T17:11:01Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Unless you can provide specific works, and direct quotes from them agreeing with you (that Jesus walked with any biblical writers and who they were), I am certainly not going to wade through voluminous pious religious literature trying to find evidence that you think is there. Your claims are refuted by some prestigious biblical scholars here at SDMB and those that wrote the Staff Report, which I have directly quoted. Until you can do that, I call bullshit, and no wishful list of names changes that one bit. Call it what you wish, the work is a published work, and I in fact copied much of what I wrote from their notes in that study bible. It was really them talking, not me, but I agree with them 100 %. The New Scofield study bible is in any bible book store near you, if they had a cite I knew of, I would give it to you, inspite of your cursing. The original editor , C.I. Scofield is dead, the committee I listed carried on his work. Paul S. Karleen and Glenn R. Ross of the Philadelphia college of Bible consulted on the work. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/337 "2013-09-25T17:14:00Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > According to [this](http://www.mywowcomputer.com/faqs.html), a WOWMaybe you need to look at your documentation, that is, RTFM. A $1K computer that can’t copy & paste isn’t worth $10. That is the computer I have, and it does not copy and paste; if it does, I am unaware of it. What you just did that allows others to look at that web page by Wow, I cannot do. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/338 "2013-09-25T17:50:28Z")
If Hell was real and a place of endless suffering, could you even send a dog there? Why would a religion, which should hold inspiration and hope for a people, have such a strange doctrine? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/339 "2013-09-25T17:53:19Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Not the modern scholars that I know of, only those you pick and choose. Heres a list of the modern scholars that agree with everything I have posted about the writers of the gospels; > > Frank E. Gaebelein- Headmaster Emeritus - The Stony Brook School > > William Culbertson-- President Moody Bible Institute > > Charles L. Feinberg---- Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary > > Allan A. Mac Rae ---- President Biblical Theological Seminary > > Clarence E. Mason Jr. — Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible > > Alva J. MC Clain ---- President Emeritus Grace Theological Seminary > > Wilbur M. Smith — Editor, Pelouber’s Select Notes > > John F. Walvoord – President Dallas Theological Seminary Well, here is the crux of the problem. Everyone you have cited is connected with the Moody Bible Institute or similar organizations. None of them are “modern” scholars. The Moody Bible Institute was founded for the express purpose of denying all the archaeological, linguistic, and historical information that began to turn up in the late 19th century, continuing to today. Since their chief objective is to simply deny that the bible is anything other than literally true, they spend all their efforts trying to discount actual analysis. For example: Papias claimed that Matthew wrote down “sayings of Jesus”. The Gospel of Matthew that we have is not a collection of sayings, but a full narrative. There is no evidende that the Matthew who wrote the Gospel was the apostle of Jesus. Mark was John Mark, the disciple of Paul, who never met Jesus. Luke was a gentile who never met Jesus. The references to the “beloved disciple” in John do not say what has been ascribed to them. The Gospel does not say “I wrote this” but: > [@](#): > > 24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. > > 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. So, the claim that he wrote something is in the third person, indicating that he might have written it down, but that the Gospel we have was copied by someone else. (There is a lot of information that demonstrates that the Apostle John was not the author of that book, but, following the Moody Bible Institute, you would shrug it off.) Peter did not write either of the letters ascribed to him. One was copied from the letter of Jude. I don’t recall the provenance of the other, but it also indicates that Peter was not the author. You are welcome to believe in the Scofield Bible and the Moody Bible Institute, but doing so fails to make a case to any objective observer who knows the biases that drive that organization and its publication. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/340 "2013-09-25T17:59:50Z")
Hell is the eternal torment of trying to carry on a rational discussion with **Mickiel** [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=18)