# The strange concept of eternal hell suffering. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528 "2013-09-23T17:54:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/521 "2013-09-26T19:43:46Z")
Meanwhile, back at the OP, I’m going to Hell. Anyone care to join me? Not great for climate, but we will have some of the best company ever! Sure would be a shame if we got there, all stripped down for hot action, and found it was only a mythical place. What a bummer. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/522 "2013-09-26T19:43:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now you’re trying to redefine “perfection”. no - GOD is - and thats allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/523 "2013-09-26T19:47:23Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Now you’re trying to redefine “perfection”. The more I learn about God, the more I am introduced to redefining. And that is why I left religion, because their definition is different than what I am learning. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/524 "2013-09-26T20:01:16Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I think you don’t get it, nothing created itself, creation is only possible by a creator. Nothing has the power, or knowledge, or innate ability to create itself; nothing! I disagree with the Atheist belief in the nothing. Something can only come from something, and to avoid infinite digression , God must be the origin. Look up quantum foam. If the net energy of the universe is zero, which it seems to be, there is no reason it can’t pop into existence. No knowledge is involved. BTW, have you read Darwin? I have, and can’t find any rocks creating anything in there. Evolution is not a thing, it is a process. Darwin called it descent with modifications. Here it is. We assume that by abiogenesis we start with life that can reproduce. Reproduction is always imperfect - descendants are not the same as the parents. Some variants will do better in the environment than others, and thus will reproduce more. These variants will dominate over time. That’s basically all there is to evolution - the rest is commentary. Now, I bet the creation from a rock stuff came from church bulletins and the like, because they lie about what evolution says to keep the suckers in line. What do you think the theory of evolution is at its basic level? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/525 "2013-09-26T20:14:05Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > L > > What do you think the theory of evolution is at its basic level? In my view evolution is change, caused, directed, focused, purposed change. To cause to change from one state to another; or cause to advance. Its structured altered transformation in order that a series of phases can occur. Its Godly development of his creations; continuous progress from his organized beginning structure of creation. Evolution is God’s movement; its increasing complexity to a more highly organized condition. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/526 "2013-09-26T20:18:10Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I will back off from nothing I have said. Nothing! I stand absolutely by everything I have stated, I am not playing games. Pawn to Queen’s Rook Five. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/527 "2013-09-26T20:18:36Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my view evolution is change, caused, directed, focused, purposed change. To cause to change from one state to another; or cause to advance. Its structured altered transformation in order that a series of phases can occur. Its Godly development of his creations; continuous progress from his organized beginning structure of creation. Evolution is God’s movement; its increasing complexity to a more highly organized condition. So - you’re not concerned with what 'The Theory of Evolution" actually means? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/528 "2013-09-26T20:21:27Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Simster, its right there in front of your eyes, think man, put your Atheism to the side and THINK! Not one of the main ingredients of cells, Proteins, Membranes, RNA, DNA can form by themselves in nature; they got created! Its academic. This IS objective evidence, good grief! Where did the information in cells come from? From chemicals? From matter or rocks? What is information? Its knowledge RECEIVED or communicated FROM SOMETHINGELSE! Come on man, information is NOT matter, though it is imprinted on matter. This is proof of God right here, your just not absorbing it as proof. RNA is self replicating, right? RNA is composed of molecules, right? Humans can construct RNA, right? There is nothing supernatural about it. (When I was in college recombinant DNA experiments were very controversial. When my daughter was in college she did it in a Bio 101 Lab.) Now, if we can stick together some molecules to create RNA, why couldn’t it happen accidentally in an environment with lots of amino acids, lots of energy, lots of room, and millions or tens of millions of years for it to happen? It doesn’t happen today because any random organic molecules get eaten up by life forms - life forms not in the ancient world. Why is any of this impossible? Why does any of it need God? Cells are not the most primitive things - viruses are more primitive, though often not considered to be living. But they show continuity between non-living and living. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/529 "2013-09-26T20:24:50Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > In my view evolution is change, caused, directed, focused, purposed change. To cause to change from one state to another; or cause to advance. Its structured altered transformation in order that a series of phases can occur. Its Godly development of his creations; continuous progress from his organized beginning structure of creation. Evolution is God’s movement; its increasing complexity to a more highly organized condition. Why is purpose required? There is no purpose in the description I gave - do you think it is impossible? Also, why do you think increasing complexity is required? Only a very few animals are big and complex. Don’t you think that viruses evolve also? ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/530 "2013-09-26T20:26:27Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - you’re not concerned with what 'The Theory of Evolution" actually means? I am more interested in the real evolution, not some theory. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/531 "2013-09-26T20:28:18Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > The more I learn about God, the more I am introduced to redefining. And that is why I left religion, because their definition is different than what I am learning. Saying “more perfect” or “more optimal” means you don’t understand either word. Closer to perfection is fine, but when you start perfect you have no where to go but down. Maybe God started perfect but started to install low quality apps and peripherals. It would explain a lot. "The world is a mess, and I’d do something about it but my omnipotence module keeps on rebooting and my omnibenevolence is in DLL hell. " ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/532 "2013-09-26T20:31:17Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I am more interested in the real evolution, not some theory. But the theory of evolution describes real evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/533 "2013-09-26T20:35:25Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Saying “more perfect” or “more optimal” means you don’t understand either word. Closer to perfection is fine, but when you start perfect you have no where to go but down. > > Maybe God started perfect but started to install low quality apps and peripherals. It would explain a lot. > > "The world is a mess, and I’d do something about it but my omnipotence module keeps on rebooting and my omnibenevolence is in DLL hell. " Well I think he did install low quality apps, we can see that in Primordial man; God created them definitely lower than us, and I seriously even doubt if he gave them consciousness anywhere near our level. They had thousands maybe even millions of years to advance , yet never did in any traceable bounds, they basically remained stagnant. Never displayed signs of consciousness in my view, I think he designed them, to observe them; and use like a living drawing board, in preperation for designing humans with Consciousness, which I think first was given to Adam. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/534 "2013-09-26T20:38:36Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Well I think he did install low quality apps, we can see that in Primordial man; God created them definitely lower than us, and I seriously even doubt if he gave them consciousness anywhere near our level. They had thousands maybe even millions of years to advance , yet never did in any traceable bounds, they basically remained stagnant. Never displayed signs of consciousness in my view, I think he designed them, to observe them; and use like a living drawing board, in preperation for designing humans with Consciousness, which I think first was given to Adam. That’s a whole lot of wasted effort for a being that supposedly already knows everything, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/535 "2013-09-26T20:41:32Z")
The actual question is: what extra-Biblical theology is valid? God doesn’t talk to humans anymore, and there are no more prophets. So elaborate descriptions of hell would seem to lack validity. From what I read, there will be a final reckoning (Last Judgement"), and the Good will go to one place, the Wicked to another. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/536 "2013-09-26T20:44:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a whole lot of wasted effort for a being that supposedly already knows everything, isn’t it? Only in your type of evaluation, in my type, I see it as astounding and incredible, the things he has done. Judging him by this displayed power, I cannot see him as being a waster of time, even his creation of time itself is amazing. I think the smallest, most tiny thing he has ever done, which he himself may view as insignificant, is in itself still a miracle to the wise man who observes. ---
**Author:** ![Mickiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/0ea827/32.png) [@Mickiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mickiel)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/537 "2013-09-26T20:47:01Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > The actual question is: what extra-Biblical theology is valid? God doesn’t talk to humans anymore, and there are no more prophets. So elaborate descriptions of hell would seem to lack validity. From what I read, there will be a final reckoning (Last Judgement"), and the Good will go to one place, the Wicked to another. > End of story. I totally disagree; the God I believe in will not loose one single human to some imaginary place for the wicked; we were created to live, and live with him in our future, and nothing; absolutely nothing can stop that in my view. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/538 "2013-09-26T20:49:49Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Pawn to Queen’s Rook Five. That is not a valid opening. Using that notation, you count from the back row of the color being played, so you can only go to three or four (unlike the H-8 notation, which always orients to the white side). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/539 "2013-09-26T20:51:25Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > Only in your type of evaluation, in my type, I see it as astounding and incredible, the things he has done. Judging him by this displayed power, I cannot see him as being a waster of time, even his creation of time itself is amazing. I think the smallest, most tiny thing he has ever done, which he himself may view as insignificant, is in itself still a miracle to the wise man who observes. Yet another post in which you totally miss addressing the issue. Let be try to simplify it for you: _Why does a god that supposedly knows everything need to do research?_ ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528/540 "2013-09-26T20:53:07Z")
> [@Mickiel](#): > > I totally disagree; the God I believe in will not loose one single human to some imaginary place for the wicked; we were created to live, and live with him in our future, and nothing; absolutely nothing can stop that in my view. This is getting tiresome. The word is “lose”, not “loose”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-strange-concept-of-eternal-hell-suffering/669528.md?page=28)